A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty 188 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Qcmbr

  Stalin is a great example of what happens when faith obscures rationalism. Stalin was an atheist but primarily he was filled with faith in (his nasty version of) marxism such that even when it was demonstrably shown to be harmful to the people it was persisted with and preached. A true rational thinker , in a position of leadership and power, will be willing to alter their underlying assumptions and premises based upon evidence and feedback.

  Intellectual honesty and rationalism is to perpetually doubt everything. Faith is to perpetually assume that the object of your faith is right no matter what. Faith can never equal intellectual honesty as it is unwilling to examine itself in a questioning or doubting state. Faith can never doubt itself lest it cease to be. Worldviews built on faith are difficult to dislodge no matter how wrong they are hence we have a plethora of competing religious ideas which are mutually incompatile but rely on exactly the same subjective evidences.

  Faith is the problem imo. Atheism is not a recipe for removing faith ( as Stalin showed) but it is a darn good start for getting rid of one idol that relies on faith.
• 

  Laika

  I'm reasonably confident that I don't need to look up Lysenko to understand that Stalin was generally irrational, but thanks for your concern.
• 

  cofty

  OK so you dont want to learn things that challenge your beliefs.

  The point about Lysenko was that Stalin was an enemy of science and reason. He outlawed genetics because it seemed to clash with his ideology Resulting in mass famines.

  Religious people can make good leaders but only if they are restrained by secular laws. Look at what is happening right now in Africa - I think its Uganda - because of the influence of Western evangelicals regarding homosexuality.

  An evangelical christian government would look a lot like the Taliban.
• 

  Laika

  Cofty, you are taking me far more seriously than I am taking myself right now, perhaps I should have added some emoticons?

  Actually, I agree with most of Q's last post, though I might swap out 'faith' for 'belief' (Greg boyd's Benefit of the doubt is a good book on this subject, in my possibly irrational opinion) Of course all ExJWs should know that when someone thinks their beliefs are necessary for salvation, be it from God or a political system etc... this is rarely healthy because it means such beliefs cannot be challenged, but I don't think you can categorise people, we don't just need laws to restrain religious leaders, we need laws to restrain all our leaders.

  Edit: And you used to be an evangelical christian right? Do you really think your friends from your old church would govern like the taliban!?
• 

  jgnat

  An evangelical religion given totalitarian power could definitely be abusive. Unless they gave up some of their ideology. There are no women elders on our board. How would the LGBT be treated? Lord's Prayer in the school? Rote memorization of bible verses? For some groups this would be a version of hell.
• 

  tec

  Subjective feelings and emotions are a terrible foundation for belief. That is what it means to be rational.

  Isn't that a strawman, Cofty? No one was talking about feelings and emotions (same thing, btw)... but personal experience/real interaction.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Tactics employed by faith range from constant redefinition of word meaning, appeals to respect, attempts to change the dialogue to questions of personal rights, outrage that someone could publically call them out ( all tactics of the unempowered) through to threats, name calling, social censure and isolation, improsnment , torture, murder and war ( tactics of empowered faith beliefs).Our board faithful are blind to their own anti social tendencies because they are not in power. A simple belief in 'love','light', 'truth', is only a few steps away from censoring the media, vigilante purity patrols, imprisoning vocal critics, enforced conversion and stonings

  Oh come on Q! (though good to hear from you!)

  Atheists aren't in power either, and they never have been, but it would be no different if they were... BECAUSE... people are people. As soon as you get a group that has decided that everything other than them is dangerous and wrong... then they go after those things and people. Give some atheists the choice, and they would wipe religion and faith off the planet (if they could). Same as some religious people.

  But certainly not all, of either camp, as your rant above suggests.

  In fact, your rant is not much different than a religious one against people other than that particular religion. There are religions who do and certainly HAVE done as you have said. I would never attempt to argue with you on that point. (There are also non-religious regimes that have done the same.) But faith and religion are NOT the same thing. No matter that you want to lump them together. They are often opposed.

  .

  And a person of faith... faith in Christ (light, love, truth)... does not seek power for themselves. A person of faith in Him seeks to serve... Him and those who belong to Him. If Christ is not forcing anyone to believe in or serve Him... then what makes people think that they have the right to try do that, themselves.

  .

  Peace, tammy
• 

  Qcmbr

  Personal experience and real interaction prove that Islam is correct tec? I have at least one muslim friend who claims that reading the Quran in its original form is to experience physical proof of Allah's mind and His perfection, it is tangible proof of divinity that fills his soul with joy. Is his experience wrong, misinterpreted, or does your god have latitude to actually dictate the Quran to help out a certain segment of mankind who are most likely to respond to a poetic series of legalistic pronouncements?
• 

  cofty

  you used to be an evangelical christian right? Do you really think your friends from your old church would govern like the taliban!? - Laika

  The short answer is yes, but it's such a good question that I am going to start a new thread on it later this evening. Thanks.
• 

  cofty

  No one was talking about feelings and emotions (same thing, btw)... but personal experience/real interaction. - Tammy

  Startingover made a very interesting post a few days ago about the spiritual practice of Tulpa. It twas called "Conjuring up our own gods..."

  People who spend a lot of time in a prayerful or mindful state can actually interact with the subject of their dovotion. They talk to each other in ways that are totally convincing to them.

  It's feels real but it's actaully all in the mind. Neglect it for long enough and it will fade.