I wonder...

by braincleaned 39 Replies latest jw experiences

mauiboy

Romans 21:19: "........Vengence is mine, I will repay says Jehovah." Pretty hard to mis-understand that.
braincleaned

Every religion has a measure of mind control or hypnotic influence. It serves no purpose and has historically been the root of wars and hate.
Those who see its charity and good deeds have to remember that you can be non-religious and do the same.
The advantage of the latter is that it is not based on hoped recompense or the fear of punishment.

On another discussion I had, some defended the usefulness of Faith and Religion. That it has it's place in our modern society.

This was my comment:

"I believe there is no good reason for any religion to exist. None. The fact that “Faith” is its cornerstone alone negates its use in reality.
At best it’s a placebo — making it dangerous if used for real problems. Reality has no use for it.

Like Bertrand Russell famously said:'Well, there can’t be a practical reason for believing what isn’t true. That’s quite… at least, I rule it out as impossible. Either the thing is true, or it isn’t. If it is true, you should believe it, and if it isn’t, you shouldn’t. And if you can’t find out whether it’s true or whether it isn’t, you should suspend judgment. But you can’t… it seems to me a fundamental dishonesty and a fundamental treachery to intellectual integrity to hold a belief because you think it’s useful, and not because you think it’s true.' "

I stand behind that statement. Every religion has a measure of mind control or hypnotic influence. It serves no purpose and has historically been the root of wars and hate.
Those who see its charity and good deeds have to remember that the non-religious do the same. The advantage of the latter is that it is not based on hoped recompense or the fear of punishment.
SnailsPace

Thank you braincleaned. This is my first post but I wanted to thank you for expressing something that I have always felt since I was a child. One of the things I have enjoyed from "lurking" around this site is the varying religious viewpoints of it's members. It seems some believe still very closely to what has been taught by the Watchtower society and some are on the other end of the spectrum and believe in no higher being at all. I respect each one's feelings. You happened to bring up some issues that I have buried deep in my heart about the atrocities documented or fictitiously written (I haven't decided which yet) in the Old Testament. I too have a hard time understanding the "justice" of certain events. I have told myself that certainly my definition of justice and morality has been shaped by the time and world I live in today. Those terms may have had a completely different meaning years ago and that may be why I don't understand actions in the Old Testament. Regardless, you brought validity to the questions I have within myself. I have recently questioned in many things. Obviously, that is why I am here. My journey has just begun and as my name suggests, this shall be a very slow process for me.
braincleaned

SnailsPace, your comment REALLY warms the heart — and I'm sure most here feel the same. I like your screen name, because you must take your time indeed.
Don't rush into any fight with anyone... you have friends and family you don't want to upset unnecessarily.

Your quest has just begun. I am so happy for you — you'll see, you will be happy you started this journey.
A journey of honest questioning. You're in the right place. We are cheering you on.
I came out on this site just a few days ago. Maybe my story will sound familiar to you…
Here's the link:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/265633/1/Time-to-take-my-mask-off#.Umc945TF0i8

All my best to you! Life will seem sweeter when you are the one behind the control of your heart and mind.
Peace!
:)
Vince.
Daniel1555

Dear Vince,

I have similar feelings than you about how Jehovah is portrayed in the Bible. I could never understand the many contradictions that a god of love would order genocide, even ordering babies to be killed. That brought me to the point, that I believe Jehovah is "just" the tribal god of Israel. Moreover I studied a lot about the flood account. I came to the conclusion that it must have been a local flood (see Pitman and Ryan Black Sea flood) which is not at contradicting the bible account (just the wt view).

That path led me further to investigate radiometric dating methods and proof of human life before bible chronology (chauvet and cosquer cave paintings go back to 30000 years).I tried to find ways of harmonizing this with the bible account. That is not easy but might even be possible.

For the first time (grew up as jw) I studied evolution without any prejudice. I came to see that a lot of the theory of evolution is based on facts but most importantly is misrepresented by wt. I realized that a "theistic evolution" does not even contradict the genesis account.

After studying all of this I did not become an atheist. I strongly believe in a creator. I don't know how or what he is but for me I still believe he is also a loving creator. Life is a mystery and I believe there are many things we are too small to grasp and we should be humble enough to admit that (not like wt who makes wrong scientific statements and acts proudly)
braincleaned

//I still believe he is also a loving creator//

Interesting comment Daniel1555.
I understand the belief in a creator. In fact, I'm agnostic about a creator. I believe quantum mechanics may very well reveal more intelligence in Nature than we expect today.

So as far as a godlike creator, I simply don't know — hence, on that point I'm agnostic. However, I am a strong atheist as to the Abrahamic God. I can't disprove a creative mind behind Nature, but I can reasonably prove it is not Jehovah! Nor any god claiming to be LOVE.

The most obvious evidence is that Nature is not created with Love.
For example, if you had all power to create animals, would you have created a balance of vegetation for wildlife, or would you have made them cruelly kill and live from killing each other?
Some talk about the overpopulation of animals if the circle of life was not what it is, but you are GOD! You could give animals a limited life and die with dignity and painlessly.

Also, 98% of species have died off. Do you know what my reputation would be if 98% of my creative work was moot??

There may be a creator — MAYBE — but I don't see any evidence for it, and I certainly see no Love in Nature. Nature is cruel, as expected with evolution, and the need for survival. Hence, I keep Jehovah where he came from; the imagination of men of old, and the cultural folklore from that era. Same with the other gods of our invention.

Something to think about...
happy@last

Thank you for your post. I left a couple of years ago after having doubts for years. There are many accounts that show the so-called loving father in a different light, with no valid explanation or justification, this is the one I have never had an answer to:

13 David then said to Nathan: “I have sinned against Jehovah.”+ Nathan replied to David: “Jehovah, in turn, forgives your sin.*+ You will not die.+ 14 Nevertheless, because you have treated Jehovah with utter disrespect in this matter, the son just born to you will certainly die.” 15 Then Nathan went to his own house. And Jehovah struck the child whom U·ri′ah’s wife had borne to David, and he became sick. 16 David pleaded with the true God in behalf of the boy. David went on a strict fast and would go in and spend the night lying on the ground.+ 17 So the elders of his house stood over him and tried to raise him up from the ground, but he refused and would not eat with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died, but David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. They said: “While the child was alive we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. So how can we tell him that the child has died? He may do something terrible.” 19 When David saw that his servants were whispering to one another, he discerned that the child had died. David said to his servants: “Has the child died?” They replied: “He has died.” 20 So David got up from the ground. He washed, rubbed himself with oil,+ changed his clothing, and went to the house+ of Jehovah and prostrated himself. Afterward, he went to his house* and asked for food to be brought to him, and he ate. 21 His servants asked him: “Why have you acted in this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and kept weeping; but as soon as the child died, you got up and ate food.” 22 He replied: “While the child was alive, I fasted+ and kept weeping because I said to myself, ‘Who knows whether Jehovah may show me favor and let the child live?’+ 23 Now that he has died, why should I fast? Can I bring him back?+ I will go to him,+ but he will not return to me.”+

This has been taken from the JW bible, and no JW was ever able to give me an explanation for it, totally disgusting behaviour of a so-called loving god.
Daniel1555

Hi Vince

Thank you very much for your comments. They are very worthwhile to think about.

Since childhood I ask myself this question why a god of love would create an ecosystem where his creatures are killibg each other in a cruel way with a lot of pain involved.

Well, even now I didn't find the answer. I tell myself that death is maybe not an enemy, just the means that other beings can live. I thought a lot about it but don't have time now to elaborate on that subject.

Maybe it is just wishful thinking that the creator is a personal god with love. Maybe he/she/or it is just an impersonal force who created the universe in a way that innumberable ways of life could develop. Maybe at the core I am agnostic too, because I don't know. I just hope.

Looking forward to speak with xou another time about the mysteries of life and creation.

Daniel
Rip

I didn't know God, Religion tought it to me. I have lost nothing in believing he exists. Brainwashed comes and teaches me God exist but it is not Jehovah because he commited acts of vengence and attrocities. Fine, that's up to him to sort it out once in the ICC. I am too weak to challenge him. I simply think that it would be more risky to not believe he exist than it is to believe he exists. After all I am not the ONE who is the author of my own existance, and HE who is the author of my existance is GOD, JEHOVAH, YAHWEH,... My father.

Besides, I think that pushing too far our reasoning is good. But we should also acknowledge that we have limits and stop being too naive about the fact that we die. We need to accept that death is natural when it is not accidental or infringed to us by other men. But when God takes life in a judgement, we have no option than to accept. because for him those who die faithful are living in his memory. He took the life of David's son but also that of Moses and presumably Henock.
Kensei01

Briancleaned: Hello

I have great admiration for somone who is brave enough to "unmask" himself. I also admire your honesty in admitting that you are an agnostic regarding a godlike creator. I too hold that same view. I firmly believe that there are things that humans do not know, nor will we develop the ability to know; and once we attempt to go beyond them then we are in the realm of pure "speculation"; and I have never seen so much speculation than in the literature of the WTBS. I also agree with the idea of Jehovah being the god of tribal Israel; and therefore no different from Baal, Molech, and the rest of the Canaanite gods.

Thank you for broaching this topic. I don't post very often but look forward to this discussion. Have a great day to all.

Kensei

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