Ok I'm chatting on Facebook with a guy who's studying with JWs, who isn't yet an unbaptised publisher because he can't kick the cancer sticks. We get onto 'God'. Now I don't believe in the Bible anymore, but I say I do to get a bit of common ground with this guy. But seriously, it's so tiring trying to argue this rubbish.
Me :I don't think there is an answer to the God question. If there is some sort of divine being, I don't think it cares.
Study: I believe he does care, it's man that doesn't care, remember, mankind chose to live without God and this is what we get for it
Me :God is not very just if he punishes billions upon billions of people because two ignorant people made a mistake in the distant past, just to win a bet with Satan.
Study: it wasn't a bet, Satan basically siad man could rule himself, and Satan challenged God's rulership, saying he withheld good from us, we chose to go our own way, we are all guilty of that, are you not choosing now to go your own way?
Me :Satan said, "Let me rule, I can do it better'. God said, "No, I can do it better". Satan: ok give me time. God: You're on. Bet much?
Study: If that is the way you choose to see it, I can't change your view, I choose to see it as a serious matter involving a intelligent creatures for all time all intelligent creatures
Me :Aha of course. I used to see it that way. I was 14 years a JW, until I found out that it's all lies and misapplication of scripture.
Study: sorry you see it that way, you are free to be against God, good luck with that
Me :But of course they tell you that if you question them, you are an evil apostate. After 14 years in the religion, I dared to ask questions and got the Inquistion. One of the things they do is equate God with the Organisation, saying if you're against the Organisation, you're against God. But it's not true. It's the bait and switch. I'm not anti-god, but anti lies. Just wait til you get baptised. It's all over, red rover.
Study: do fill me in Me : Where would you like me to start? I was first attracted to JWs as teenager in the 90s because they offered me instant friendship and answers.
Study: do you really care to save me from the big bad watchtower and show me the way to life? I've seen the negative attitudes of others who left
Me : The way to life? Well it's different for everyone. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life.
Study: yes he did
Me : Maybe you should wonder why people who were in it for a long time have a negative attitude towards it. Maybe you should wonder what years of it did to them.
Study: to bad not many do what he says or follow him closely
Me :Very few do. The ones I've met who do are people full of mercy and forgiveness and understanding, not books of rules on every aspect of life.
Study: I wouldn't listen if what I am hearing is not from the bible
Me :Acts 1:8 2 Tim 2:5 or 1 Tim 2:5, can't remember which one exactly. The one about Jesus being your mediator. If anyone teaches something different, they can't be teaching truth.
Study: yes, Jesus is my mediator, I haven't been taught otherwise I was just reading about it in a publication I'm reading "Come Be My Follower"
Me :Good. Now look it up on the WT library and see that they teach Jesus is the mediator for 144k only. Also look up the failed predictions of 1925, 1975 etc. But you won't find them in the WT. But they can be googled. Then look up Deuteronomy 18:22.
Study: Yes, believe me, I looked at all those things, they have admitted making mistakes, I don't hold against them what they have confessed, Chrisrendom could take some lessons, they still think WWII was a good thing
Me : Sure Christendom could! But saying JWs are great because at least they're better than christendom, is like saying marijuana is better than heroin. When you're a study, like you are, it's very different to when you get baptised. Very different. It's a nice period, while you're studying.
Study: I guess you have no congregational family then, kind of a loner?
Me : I did but they shun me now. I didn't break any bible command, all I did was raise some questions. People I've known for nearly 20 years have cut me off, abused me, blocked me...people who WERE my congregational family. It hurts to relate these experiences, and it hurts to realise they were only conditional friends. The one who has stuck by me unconditionally is [mutual friend].
Study: seeing how it is now, you never really intended to recieve an answer for your question, did you? questions your mind was made up already is what I'm saying
Me :Of course not, otherwise I wouldn't have asked them.
Study: did anyway attempt to answer? anyone
Me : No, they just accused me and tried to side track the issues. And gossiped behind my back.
Study:do you mind me asking what your questions were
Me : First of all "Why aren't we allowed to ask questions?"
Study: even if you convinced me, I don't believe Christendom doctrine, they're false
Me : IF the Organisation admits to being fallible, why then do we have to obey them without thought? If the truth is always changing, then how can we know they have the truth? Christendom doctrine is whack too. It all is. The bible can be interpreted so many different ways.
Study: my understanding of some things is not the sam as it was before, we all learn truth more accurately over time so you have left JWs as well as your belief in God
Me : Then why would Jesus direct (direct is the word used, not inspire) them to teach the wrong thing? Like in 1950 they taught the generation was 37 years long. In the Reasoning book they teach the generation who saw 1914 would be allive at Armageddon. Then in 1995 and 2010 they made big changes to overlapping generations and that. At what point did they have the 'truth'? If it's not the truth, it was a lie. Why would Jesus direct them to teach something untrue? God works through individuals, not organisations. God works through people like my mother, who are more kind and caring and generous than any JW. Jesus started a way of life, not an organisation that dictates every little part of your life.
Study:what I do trust is the name of Jehovah and the name of Jesus Christ
Me : The Catholic organisation is a crock but individual catholics can be wonderful spiritual people.
Study:All of God's servants in the bible made mistakes
Me : Look up the Name JEhovah. It was invented in Medieval times by a catholic monk. The closer rendition of the tetragrammaton is Yahweh of Yahuwa. Hebrew language did not have a J or V sound, neither did latin or greek
Study: they did thing God told them not to do why even use the bible as a defense on some points seeing that you don't believe in it?
Me : Of course. Then by that standards all the Christians who are sincere will be saved. JWs are no different. Good people with good intentions trying to serve YHWH the best way they know how.
Study: I for one do not limit salvation to JWs
Me : I didn't say I don't believe in it. I don't believe the JW interpretation. IT's very rigid and presumptousu. That's great! The religion does however. WT makes it very clear one must be a JW in good standing.
Study:they do not themselves judge themselves as saved nor comdemned
Me :I preached door to door for nearly 14 years. I know what they judge and what they condemn.
Study:I cannot judge myself, but I am rsponsible to act on what I've learned have they ever pointed out a person and said, "that man is condemned"
Me : I attended every meeting for over 14 years, as well as assemblies, conventions, international conventions, plus studied every WT for nearly 18 years. There is a lot of judgement and condemnation. To say 'this organisation is going to be saved and this one is not," is making God's judgement for him. "have they ever pointed out a person and said, "that man is condemned" Absolutely. Every time the elders disfellowship someone or a JW child grows up and decides not to become a JW and goes his or her own way
Study: what specifically did they say
Me : When we were out witnessing, JWs would see a nice house and say, "I want that one after armageddon." That means, after the family living in it is killed by Jehovah.
Study: or did they show bible verses and do the verses make sense, we can only know our state from what is written in the bible
Me : That's one example.
Study: I'm sure that was a personal view of the statement about the house
Me : What you say is true. We can only be responsible for ourselves. That's why week after week for many years it became difficult hearing at the meetings etc how God is going to kill my family. Isn't that God's decision, not men's? Aha you assume it was said once. I live in an affluent area. It's a common attitude among JWs. It's not taught int the Bible
Study:I can randomly point to a house and say, I want that house" doesn't mean anything more than just wishful thinking
Me : No, they mean it. Or when someone slams the door or is rude and we come away from the door and say, "Well they can't say we didn't try to warn them when God kills them at Armageddon."
Study: that is sad, I haven't seen attitudes like that here believe me, God will judge his people, believe me, he will, I have to watch myself
Me : It's an international JW attitude. Or a JW I know, her non-Jw dad died and she was so cut up, which is normal. But she doesn't understand that more than just her dad will die according to JW beliefs. All those innocent children frolicking in the park will die too, billions of them, but no one stops to think how tragic that will be. You are a good person- don't change.
Study: perhaps I will just have to get baptised and see for myself, if I can stop smoking that is, I always preach salvation through Jesus Christ
Me : That's the Bible's message Acts 1:8.
Study:I guess JWs are not perfect afterall, lol Me : One of the baptism questions is a pledge to serve the organisation. Shouldn't you rather pledge to be baptised in the 'name of the Son, the Father, and Holy Spirit'? (Matt 28:20)
Study: I may have a problem with that, I am very adament about scripture
Me : Yes, and so you should be! The two JW baptism questions are, and I'm saying from memory, "Have you repented and made dedication..." and that, and the second one is "Do you understand that your baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit directed organistion" Funny, they weren't the baptism words Jesus set out
Study:I sometimes sense there is no way to go, at least for congregational fellowship, I mean, what if we are all wrong, no one is close enough to do the work of a shepherd under Christ the whole world is hooped then we might well eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die
Me : That's a myopic attitude. Better to be the change you want to see in the world, like Jesus was
Study: I was just saying that, it's not my true attitude
Me : I know. I can see that. Anyhoo, I'm not going to type til my fingers are numb what you should or shouldn't do with your life. I'm just telling you how it is after 14 years, and the thousands of hours I devoted to that organisation, and the thousands of others I met doing the same thing
Study: I would have no problem telling the world their ONLY hope in the 1,000 year rulership of Jesus Christ
Me : Then go for it.
Study: that's basically what I do, when I have the chance
Me : I'd do some independent research first, and as a psychology student, you may be interested in reading up on Cognitive Dissonance. One must make an informed decision before pledging one's life to an organisation.
Study: it's good to be reminded of where I come from, check out my songs.
Me : I will when I'm over my hayfever.
Study: get better, nurse yourself just remember, among the mistakes, where you learned the truth, just as I am reading, Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life" he also said to his Father, "thy word is truth"
Me : Where I learned the truth- yes, from no organisation.
This bloody discussion is still going on would you believe.