Question for believers: on which Heavenly "Day" did God create humans?

by adamah 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

adamah

So no one knows the answer to the question? Not even TEC, telling us what Jesus has to say?

Here's my questions for Bible believers again:

Since everyone agrees that the six creative days occurred in Genesis 1, then when did God actually take those 1,000 years of rest?

Was it BEFORE the Fall of Adam? AFTER the Fall of Adam? Did Adam's fall occur ON God's Sabbath?

Wouldn't the Earth go to Hell in a handbasket, without God or the angels being allowed to do any work on the Sabbath?

And where are we in God's "Week, anyway? After 6,000 yrs of human existence (i.e. 6 'God days'), shouldn't we be coming up on God's Sabbath day, again?

And wouldn't God's observing the Sabbath day in Heaven make the shutdown of the Fed Gov't look like child's play, in comparison?

Adam
tec

No one is answering, Adam... because you are asking a question based on your own assumption that a day is a thousand years. (or on the assumption that all believers think that a day is a thousand years; or on the assumption of 7th day adventists or something like that regarding the 7th day) You have not addressed what others DID show you about the lack of contradiction you originally brought, or at the very least admitted that there might not BE a contradiction, according to the text.

Your argument seems to be with an interpretation of a particular denomination... not the actual text.

Christ said, "My Father is always at work to this very day, and I too am working."

When you have a day of rest, does that mean you never work again?

Peace,

tammy
Bart Belteshassur

Sir82 has it right that there are two narratives in Genesis. According to Richard Friedman the second narrative starts at Gen 2:5 and continues through the OT upto 1Kings 2:46, althought it is interweeved with other writings. His book is title "The Hidden Book in the Bible". He is also the author of Who Wrote the Bible. Worth a read if you can find a copy.
caroline77

It seems to me that God had completed the work of setting up the world, but did not stop doing the routine things that have to be done.

On the Sabbath people still got up, dressed, ate etc.
adamah

TEC said-

No one is answering, Adam... because you are asking a question based on your own assumption that a day is a thousand years. (or on the assumption that all believers think that a day is a thousand years; or on the assumption of 7th day adventists or something like that regarding the 7th day)

"My assumption"? You're kidding, right? Or are you unfamiliar with Psalms 90:3-4?

Psalms 90:3-4:

3. You turn man back into dust and say, "Return, O children of men." 4 For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it passes by, or as a watch in the night.

(And note that 2nd Peter 3:8 paraphrases the scripture in Psalms, repeating essentially the same concept).

Come on, TEC, don't play ignorant.... IIRC, you've even cited the "1,000 yrs is like a day to God" in the past as justification as to why Adam didn't die the "very same day" he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, but died 100's of years later, at 930 yrs of age, as recorded in Genesis 5:5 (and note that he died just under the 1,000 yr old mark, just so God didn't look like a liar, since Adam clearly died on "the same day" within the reference of a "God day").

TEC said- You have not addressed what others DID show you about the lack of contradiction you originally brought, or at the very least admitted that there might not BE a contradiction, according to the text.

You clearly missed (or are refusing to see) the TWO TIMES when I said this to indicate moving on:

Adam said- Since everyone agrees that the six creative days occurred in Genesis 1

TEC said- Your argument seems to be with an interpretation of a particular denomination... not the actual text.

No kidding, you say? You mean some Xians will actually engage in scriptural 'eisegesis', interpreting the very same passage in a quite-different manner than others? Huh! You don't think that has anything to do with why there's some 35k flavors of Xianity today, all calling themselves believers?

But enough about the others, already: I'm asking what YOU, TEC, believe.

Do you buy into the "it's not literal days" camp? If not, then how old is mankind, per YOU?

And I can repeat the original question a 3rd time, OR better yet, just find it above and provide your answer to that one, too (it's the question in bold about if God took a day off to respect His own institution of the Sabbath BEFORE or AFTER the fall of Adam). That's the one I'm really looking for an answer to.

TEC said- Christ said, "My Father is always at work to this very day, and I too am working."

Doesn't it seem odd to you that God would go to the bother of instituting a tradition of creating a Sabbath Day, only to ditch the concept later in the week after God changed his mind? Again, is that what you actually believe? Has God ditched the Sabbath not even 6,000 yrs (i.e. 6 "God Days") later?

Oh, on this:

TEC said- When you have a day of rest, does that mean you never work again?

Huh? Why would you even ask that?

I dunno about you, but most humans follow a seven-day week, which then repeats; it's cyclic. Normative Judaism still takes one day off to observe a day of rest, the Sabbath (in modern times, it's Friday, where the Sabbath day commences at sundown Friday and ends at sundown Saturday, since they also count the beginning of a new day based on sunset, not midnight, as is done in modern times).

Adam
adamah

caroline said-

It seems to me that God had completed the work of setting up the world, but did not stop doing the routine things that have to be done. On the Sabbath people still got up, dressed, ate etc.

That's right, but remember the prohibition was against performing ANY kind of WORK on the Sabbath, eg Exodus contains the account of a Jew who was put to death for picking up sticks in the wilderness. It's also why they weren't allowed to collect manna on the Sabbath, since food preparation has to be done on the day BEFORE Sabbath in order to avoid doing work. It's also why Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath by healing on the Sabbath: preparing salves and placing it into the blind person's eyes was considered a form of work. It's why many modern-day Jews who keep strict Sabbath even refuse to write with a pen, or even carry objects: the very act of writing or lifting is forbidden (esp if it's outside in public), since it's considered as work.

Adam
tec

"My assumption"? You're kidding, right? Or are you unfamiliar with Psalms 90:3-4?

Nope. Not kidding. You are creating a doctrine out of a couple of verses, based on what some groups have done. But what makes you so sure that you are doing what is right?

Come on, TEC, don't play ignorant.... IIRC, you've even cited the "1,000 yrs is like a day to God" in the past as justification as to why Adam didn't die the "very same day" he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, but died 100's of years later, at 930 yrs of age, as recorded in Genesis 5:5 (and note that he died just under the 1,000 yr old mark, just so God didn't look like a liar, since Adam clearly died on "the same day" within the reference of a "God day").

Hmm... nope. That would not have been me. Link perhaps?

No kidding, you say? You mean some Xians will actually engage in scriptural 'eisegesis', interpreting the very same passage in a quite-different manner than others? Huh! You don't think that has anything to do with why there's some 35k flavors of Xianity today, all calling themselves believers?

yeah... I don't think this is actually breaking news, Adamah.

But enough about the others, already:

Sure. You are the one depending upon what others say to draw up a conflict that doesn't exist.

I'm asking what YOU, TEC, believe.

Okay.

Do you buy into the "it's not literal days" camp? If not, then how old is mankind, per YOU?

Not literal 24 hour days, and I don't know.

And I can repeat the original question a 3rd time, OR better yet, just find it above and provide your answer to that one, too (it's the question in bold about if God took a day off to respect His own institution of the Sabbath BEFORE or AFTER the fall of Adam). That's the one I'm really looking for an answer to.

that was one of your questions, but not the original question. Says he rested when all of his creating work was done.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that God would go to the bother of instituting a tradition of creating a Sabbath Day, only to ditch the concept later in the week after God changed his mind? Again, is that what you actually believe? Has God ditched the Sabbath not even 6,000 yrs (i.e. 6 "God Days") later?

I cannot follow your line of thought. Later in the week He changed his mind? You're still assuming that we are in the first week?

My Lord has reminded me,

On God's Sabbath, we rest from OUR work (our will/desires)... and do HIS work (his will).

If you need that backed up:

"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day,

if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable,

and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

then you will find your joy in the LORD,

and I will cause you tride on the heights of hte land and to feast on the inheritance of your father, Jacob."

Christ did His Father's will and not His own will, EVERY day. So what has been ditched except perhaps a tradition that was a shadow of the TRUTH to come?

Huh? Why would you even ask that?

Because you are writing as though God could not have rested from his creating, and then continued to work.

Peace,

tammy
Terry

Eve, being a clone of Adam (made from his DNA rib),always bothered me. How could these two possibly produce offspring?

The concept of DAY only makes sense when there are demarcations (such as night and day).

Why would God (who dwelt without analog light or darkness) need to distinguish anything at all day-wise since He is outside of Time?

How can you have a Day=1000 years before there are such things as planets orbiting?

Here is the real problem: fantasy mythos only works as a story and breaks down completely under scrutiny and reality-matching.
adamah

TEC, if God and Jesus won't whisper the answers in your ear, then take this as an invitation to share YOUR beliefs, then.

Adam asked: Do you buy into the "it's not literal days" camp? If not, then how old is mankind, per YOU?

TEC said- Not literal 24 hour days, and I don't know.

So, you're back-peddling from a literal 24-hour day interpretation? Do you suggest an alternative, or let me guess: you want to use some ill-defined and indeterminate period (perhaps 'age') which allows some 'wiggle room'?

And on the age of mankind (i.e. how long ago was Adam created), "you don't know"? Surely you must know someone who DOES know, who was around for the big event?

And if Jesus ain't talkin', surely you MUST be familiar with the efforts of believers over the past 2,500 years (pastors, bishops, priests, popes, etc) who relied on the Bible as the inspired Word of God, a record of human history from the beginning that's been handed down from on high from the "One who made all things"? Those efforts of men (like Bishop Ushher, etc) who've attempted to create a chronological time-line of human history by relying on the details of geneologies and ages of men recorded in the Bible in order to exactly determine (if not roughly approximate) an age of the Earth and mankind, starting from Adam, and extending to the time of Jesus (circa first century CE)?

Or have you thrown out all their efforts, too, just dismissing it all as stuff not to be taken literally?

Adam said- And I can repeat the original question a 3rd time, OR better yet, just find it above and provide your answer to that one, too (it's the question in bold about if God took a day off to respect His own institution of the Sabbath BEFORE or AFTER the fall of Adam). That's the one I'm really looking for an answer to.

TEC said- that was one of your questions, but not the original question.

Yeah, no kidding. I thought I made it perfectly clear that AFTER the point was clarified and agreement was reached, it was time to move on? Maybe you missed that, YET AGAIN? Again, a non-response to the question of WHEN God's Sabbath day occurred:

1) Before the Fall of Adam

2) After the Fall of Adam

TEC said- Says he rested when all of his creating work was done.

Yup, that's correct! That's the generally-accepted definition of the Sabbath, a day of rest taken AFTER a week of working and creating "stuff". Thanks, as that point of the definition of "sabbath" is firmly (re)established...

Adam said- Doesn't it seem odd to you that God would go to the bother of instituting a tradition of creating a Sabbath Day, only to ditch the concept later in the week after God changed his mind? Again, is that what you actually believe? Has God ditched the Sabbath not even 6,000 yrs (i.e. 6 "God Days") later?

TEC said- I cannot follow your line of thought. Later in the week He changed his mind? You're still assuming that we are in the first week?

LOL! I'm asking how YOU, TEC, interpret Genesis ONE (the first freakin' chapter in the first freakin' book of the Holy Bible) which contains six "days" of creation, followed by a Sabbath "day"!

If God's calendar (where the concept of a seven-day week was explicitly introduced in Genesis One) is anything like human calendars, then the cycle repeats (and since Exodus contains the commandment ORDERING the observance of the Sabbath on a weekly cycle, which was introduced back in Genesis 2:3, it's reasonable to assume that God follows a similar calendar, which is EXACTLY an assumption that prior generations of believers have made in order to calculate God's time-line for Bible prophecies).

TEC said- My Lord has reminded me, On God's Sabbath, we rest from OUR work (our will/desires)... and do HIS work (his will).

And I'm sure your Lord has not forgotten that humans are not permitted to work against God's will on ANY DAY of the week, MUCH less on the Sabbath (!), since engaging in works that are COUNTER to God's will (such as violating the Sabbath!) is the very definition of a 'sin' and sinning is verboten on the Sabbath, too. But your Lord already knew that, I'm sure.....

Your Lord seemingly missed the point that Genesis 2:3 clearly states that God rested from HIS work of creating on the Sabbath (i.e. the work of creating, which WAS His will, since God willed creations into existence by Divine utterance in Chapter One). This is the first time in the Torah that the word 'Sabbath' appears, and it's intended by the Priestly source to reinforce WHY the Sabbath must be observed: God set the example for Sabbath by taking a day of rest off from HIS creations, and humans should also take a weekly day of rest off from THEIR works, to set it aside as a consecrated day making it 'Holy' (i.e. for worship).

But the point remains: God is setting an EXAMPLE by observing a day of rest, and my question revolves around what God considers as His "week".

Let me guess: you probably would dismiss Genesis 2:3 as the work of "lying scribes"?

TEC said- Christ did His Father's will and not His own will, EVERY day. So what has been ditched except perhaps a tradition that was a shadow of the TRUTH to come?

The Sabbath concept was introduced in Genesis 2:3, and God commanded it be observed by the Israelites in Exodus under penalty of death (eg it's so important, it's included in the 10 commandments). And are you forgetting that Jesus was supposedly a 'tekton' (Greek word translated as 'craftsman'), BEFORE he commensed his preaching work (which he supposedly started at the age of 30)? Jesus likely was Sabbath-observant for thousands of Sabbath days over his life, since that was a point of contention of the Pharisees throughout the gospels.

But what possible value could Sabbath observance have in pointing to Jesus and the 'New Covenant'?

Adam said- Huh? Why would you even ask that?

TEC said- Because you are writing as though God could not have rested from his creating, and then continued to work.

TEC, a five yr old SHOULD understand that weekly calendars, whether ancient or modern, are cyclic, and simply repeat, eg:

Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday

That's EXACTLY the point of my question: since Genesis One sets up a cycle for days/weeks on "God Time" (where the concept of counting days started LONG BEFORE even the Earth and mankind are created, where an Earth day is based on a 24-hour cycle of the Earth rotating on it's axis), and God observes a day of rest on Day Seven, why is the temporal reference to "God Days" dropped like a hot potato?

Adam
adamah

Terry said-

Here is the real problem: fantasy mythos only works as a story and breaks down completely under scrutiny and reality-matching.

Ah, Terry! You're no fun!!

(PS I'm still pissed at you over your funeral scenario, which was rather lame!)

Ah, hell, here's what I'm trying to get at:

1) If Bible literalists claim that Psalms 90:3-4 is a literal conversion factor (1,000 human yrs is a day to God, needed to justify God's threat that Adam would die "the very day he ate of the fruit", and likely introduced into Psalms to cover the claim in Genesis 5:5 that says Adam died at the age of 930 years), it creates a problem from the Priestly author's introduction of the concept of Sabbath, since God's Sabbath day occurred BEFORE the Fall of Adam occurred (presumably on day Eight of God's "week").

It means that Adam would have to be AT LEAST 1,000 yrs old, since Adam was aging over the Sabbath day, and BEFORE he ate the fruit on day AFTER the Sabbath (day Eight). So there goes Adam's age being 930, blowing Genesis 5:5 into question.

Ooops.....

It's a good thing God is not confined to time and space, since that gives Him freedom to violate it, time-shifting at will (and also conveniently 'splaining prophetic failures).

Of course, the original Priestly and Yahwist authors weren't concerned with such literal details and the introduction of continuity errors into their story, since they never expected to be writing anything other than a fanciful story/mythology that explains how the Jews came to end up in captivity in Babylon. Those uninspired mortal authors would likely be horrified to see that Gentile Xian literalists in 2013 were actually their writings seriously as proof of a God.

EDIT:

Terry said- Eve, being a clone of Adam (made from his DNA rib),always bothered me. How could these two possibly produce offspring?

Not only from the genetic impossibility, note that Genesis 1 has God creating humans (not specifically Adam and Eve) by Divine utterance, whereas the creation account in Genesis 2 has God fashioning Adam from dust from the Earth (as if crafting a work of pottery), and then breathing life into Adam, but only taking Adam's rib to create Eve (and she doesn't get CPR from God, so is devoid of direct injection of God's spirit).

Adam

Question for believers: on which Heavenly "Day" did God create humans?

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