MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse

by silentlambs 129 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  dungbeetle

  hey, silentlambs, weren't some of those insults thrown at me?

  You have plenty of insults of 'your own'...don't be greedy!!!

  Ho hum, just another day at JW.COM daycare center...
• 

  LoneWolf

  Silentlambs --- I wish that you had written your detailed explanation sooner, instead of getting all bent out of shape. That kind of thing I respect, although I don't agree with all of the conclusions. 99% of it is excellent.

  However, I wish you'd left the listing of "insults" off. It's petty and makes you look like you're pouting, especially in view of the fact that you were the one who saw insults where there weren't any and initiated the name calling. I would like very much to see you effective, but that kind of stuff only reduces that effectiveness. I would suggest that this subject is far too serious to allow oneself to lose objectivity.

  Now, I'd be interested to know --- thanks to the fact that you were forced to explain this matter in great detail, have you not learned a few things about your own argument and gained in skill in presenting it that you did not know before? If so, then is it not true that these men actually did you a favor by their persistence? Think about it.

  Dungbeetle --- I suspected that you were a victim. Please note how I stated that about not caring:

  Nobody gives a damn how you feel. We all give a damn how the victims feel.

  You happen to be in both catagories and I wish to show no disrespect at all toward your victimhood. However, there is a real danger of doing injustice thanks to being a victim, as they've just been through a subjective experience and objectivity is extremely difficult if not impossible to maintain.

  A situation that is closely related is that of panic. Someone may be drowning and should you go to help, may drown you too by clinging to you in their panic. It takes skill to keep that from happening.

  I've enlarged on these things in my thread that I promised you last night. It's posted now.

  Men like these are perhaps the best allies that Bill can have, for even though they may make him mad, he is forced to polish his abilities and become more effective. They are not trying to damage his platform, but are trying to strengthen it by plugging the holes that he apparently can't see.

  LoneWolf
• 

  Pathofthorns

  So what is the position of silentlambs organization when it comes to reporting?

  1. Minor child-Mandatory reporting.

  2. Adult-Encouraged reporting.

  The WT organization needs to:

  1. Empower publishers to report first before getting scriptural guidance from elders.

  2. Turn over all records of child molestation for investigation/prosecution.

  Was this so hard to type Bill? These were the clear and concise answers we were looking for from page 1. Thank you (finally).

  As for your list of perceived insults, I wonder how much time you had to take out of your busy schedule to make it? It is clear you can't see that your whole manner regarding myself and Marvin has been insulting. I wouldn't even waste my time trying to dig up your insults because they are plain to see in nearly every post you have made.

  Like I said previously your arrogance is disgusting and I make no apologies for anything I have said to you regarding this matter. I expect none from you either, but I do expect better from you in the future because the issue you represent and the position you have taken regarding it demands better.

  Path
• 

  hillary_step

  Bill,

  Does it really seem to be as Hillary_step stated: "Marvin is one of the most honest, direct and yet reasonable posters on this Board. His intentions are *always* good, as many of his past posts will testify. The intelligent and measured manner that he approaches these difficult issues does him credit." Perhaps such conduct is viewed as exceptional by others, I beg to differ. I strongly suspect an apology will not be forthcoming.

  I am not quite sure what you mean by this statement, or who you expect an apology from. If from myself, I have none to offer.

  I stand by my statements regarding Marvin, whom I know. I also stand by the most important part of my statement omitted by yourself:

  Passion is a wonderful thing, fearless indignation at the suffering of others can lead to noble gestures, but without reason and restraint more pain than healing can be caused.

  Marvin explored certain scenarios in his analysis of this highly complex issue, your reactions quite frankly Bill startled me a little, not so much in content but in delivery. Though your position has not changed in the affair, you certainly were forced to clarify it and I agree with LoneWolf that in doing so it has helped to validate matters in you own mind, and arguably in the mind of others..

  In one or two posts by yourself and others, a suggestion 'a la Watchtower' was planted in peoples minds insinuating that Marvin’s motivation regarding his stand on the abuse of children within the WTS was suspect. I rose to defend Marvin, knowing this to be patently untrue, and actually very unkind.

  As far as I can see in this thread Marvin was repeatedly personally insulted by yourself and others and it took many posts and a quite a few insults for him to eventually become provoked. What you list above as Marvin’s ‘insults’ do not read as such to me, but are part of a polite social intercourse, and are restrained within their context. Frankly Bill, this cannot be said about some of your own comments.

  As to the points at issue, enough has been said already on the matter. Too many amateurs are involved in an issue that needs a professional eye. Much information has been posted to this Board in the past in the way of information that has shown a naiveté at best and irresponsibility at worse. Information that could compromise legal cases in hand, that has provided ammunition to WTS Legal, and more often than not seems to be motivated by the strange desire to be ‘first with the news’ and to have its own PR agenda.

  This thread has at least achieved one end, it has helped many of us to see that these issues are far more complex than most of us appreciate. Passion must be tempered with restraint and reason, as I have already suggested, lest the important issues become muddied by our own hurt feelings.

  I salute the hard work you have done and are doing on behalf of the injured innocents Bill, and I trust that you take my words above in the spirit of friendship and concern that they are meant.

  Kindest regards to you and yours - HS

  DungBeetle,

  In re-reading this thread I noted a comment that you made very early on, in fact on the first page, which puzzled me.

  Hey, Path and Hillery, why don't you sort through THAT one, hey....

  I wonder if you might clarify what you mean here.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  morrisamb

  The first post of this thread was about reporting child abuse. Don't want to come across like some Mary Poppins jumping in on the fun...oh, what the heck, yes, I do!

  Thought I'd share with you these two emails I received today from Belgium:

  1. Hello,
  
  I've read the articles on your web site and ...I personally think the issue of abuse can't get enough publicity. You know of don't know, but in Belgium we had a great case of paedophilia which brought Belgium in the spotlight (a very bad light!) from all over the world. In this case the media jumped on it, but that wasn't a bad thing. Since then the children became more aware of the fact that abuse isn't something natural and in the last few years we see more and more cases of paedophilia come out. Children tell their parents or other people about the fact that they have been sexually abused bij their teachers, principals, priests, etc... I don't think that twenty years ago this was the case. So in that perspective publicity about these cases is a positive thing for all the people who have been abused. Considered the media attention these cases usely get, I think your book could be a succes here in Belgium also. Best wishes,
  Marnix

  And, of course, timing is everything..

  2. Dear Sir
  
  We read about your book (internet). Do you know whether the book will be sold in Belgium?
  - What about your parents? I supposeyour mother agrees withit? But your father, he is still alive? I think such a book could not be published in Belgium
  - Do you have relatives (Bataille familiy?) in our region (Izegem, Ingelmunster) who know you and your familiy? Can we talk to them voor some comment?
  - Last question: can you e-mail some pictures? Of you, your book?
  We prepare an article anyway, perhaps for edition May 17.
  Thanks.
  Noël Maes, editor in chief
  Krant van West-Vlaanderen
  **********
  I'll tell you, it's hard to believe everyone on the planet is practically talking about sexual abuse now. The times, they are a changing...
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  Just to isolate and highlight Bill's position on questions posed for clarification (that was a long post Bill made, but I encourage everyone to read it):

  Question 1:
  If presented with a situation where a minor comes to you and says they had been abused but persisted that they would not talk about their experience to anyone who would automatically report the matter to authorities, would you offer them help on the condition of leaving the prerogative of reporting to them or would you turn them away?
  Bill's Answer:
  Neither, I would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and I would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. That is what mature adults do when they wish to help children.

  There is no option, if the child adamantly wishes to not report, to bad, another child could be molested for inaction. If the minor refuses to talk to you, you know there is an issue of molestation simply report what you know to child services and allow them to investigate, a person trained in these matters is far better qualified to help the child and get to the bottom of the matter.

  Question 2:
  If the person were an adult victimized in childhood with the same request, what would you do?
  Bill's Answer:
  I would help the adult see the importance of reporting the CRIME and would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. If they then made the personal decision to not sign complaint papers then I would have done all that I can do other than warn anyone who I may know personally who has contact with the molester. This is what caring people in positions of responsibility do when they wish to protect children.
  
  You cannot force someone to do what they do not wish to do. You can encourage them to do what is in the best interest of children.

  To me these answers are pretty clear. Bill's position for children is the same as mine:

  In the case of minors:

  No matter what conditions a child wants to lay down, if they have been abused then it should be reported whether they want it reported or not.

  In the case of adults victimized as children by abuse:

  Help them as much as you can, including encouraging them to report what happened. But if they insist we respect their wish not to report as a condition of helping them then we should not report the matter without their express permission.

  These positions are in complete agreement with views I've expressed from the beginning, and they also agree with what I presented early on as to Bill's views. Regarding the important aspect of reporting or not as a condition of helping, earlier I wrote:

  According to what you described above, as it relates to reporting, you would react somewhat differently depending on circumstances. As follows:
  A child reports they are victims of child molestation:
  You would immediately report what you know to the police.
  An adult reports they were molested when a child:
  You would strongly advise the victimized individual to turn the pedophiles over to authorities and provide whatever assistance you could toward helping them do so.
  Given the straightforward scenarios above, I would agree that your actions would be the most appropriate. But your responses would not represent a blanket mandatory reporting.

  The frustration occurred when, afterward, Bill claimed I had somehow twisted his words. This left in doubt whether Bill's position had been properly summed. Now Bill has affirmed that his position agrees with those conclusions from earlier, and I thank him for doing so.

  One of the most pressing matters of concern had to do with what Bill meant when he spoke of mandatory reporting, which is what this thread is about. The concern was that Bill's proposals meant: no matter what, all incidents of child abuse must be reported without exception. Now it is clearer (clear as a bell to these eyes) that Bill is not suggesting such. In cases of adults victimized as children by abuse, the prerogative of reporting should be left to the victim.

  I also agree with Bill's position of having the WTS turn over records of pedophiles. The only caveat I would inject is that turning over of records should be done in accordance with laws protecting people's civil liberties. I cannot state with certainty whether Bill agrees on that one point of caution but he probably does; personally I would assume it. But the detail is not important enough to pursue here because it would eventually be solved by society rather than us, except to the extent each of us chooses to lobby as citizens. But this is aside from what we would press strictly on the issue of child abuse as it relates to WTS policy.

  Again, I thank Bill for adding what he did in his last post (or maybe him better orienting what he'd already said?) so that his positions on important aspects of reporting child abuse are clearer. I don't see where our views differ significantly in this area, if at all.

  If there is something important in my presentation that somehow runs contrary to Bill's view then I leave it for him to point out. It is not, and never has been, my intention to twist anything he says. I only sought an understanding of what he meant by certain things he's said.

  Regards,

  Marvin
• 

  morrisamb

  Silent Lambs is getting some help AND Dateline isn't the only media who will focus on the Witnesses and Sexual Abuse! The Gay & Lesbian World Review is working on an ISSUE FOCUSING On Sexual Abuse and the church. A month ago, they asked me to come up with an article on my experience as a Witness who was sexual abused. The editor of the Review has read my book and has taken a personal interest in my story. He will print excerpts from my book along with my article. It's about 4000 words long and their Review goes around the world, so this is wonderful exposure...here is just an excerpt of the article...

  By Donald D'Haene

  Two decades ago, I was among the first men to break the barrier of silence and come forward to speak openly about being sexually abused as a child. Since that time, more than a thousand victims have told me their individual stories. From them I have learned that, while each victim’s experience is unique, we are united as comrades in a battle by the common experience of abuse by an adult. After more than a decade of sexual abuse, my siblings and I finally came forward and told ministers, police, doctors, and therapists. And we took the perpetrator, our father, to court. How this journey of revelation and recovery unfolded is a story that I have told in a memoir called Father’s Touch, which tells the story of my father’s physical and sexual abuse of me and my siblings, as well as my mother, and of my personal struggles with my faith and with my sexual orientation as we fought back against the abuse.

  We were Jehovah’s Witnesses, and my father used our religion—its patriarchal structure and ideology—to manipulate and control the rest of the family. My father, Daniel D’Haene, was a man who lusted for power and craved complete control over those around him, especially his family, and he used the theology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses to support this craving and to subject his children to years of abuse. Initially he instructed us that if we disobeyed him in any way, we would be disappointing God. Indeed, he assured us that his authority over us was God-given, a claim that did seem to be supported by our religion. All four of the children in my family—including my two brothers and one sister—were involved in the abuse over a period of thirteen years...
  ..... What’s more, The Game itself was defined as part of God’s plan for families—a secret game that every Christian father plays with his children. Why would we question our father’s authority when God had made him head of the household? If we loved God, wouldn’t we obey his servant’s wishes?

  In the ensuing years, our father used his fanatical interpretations of church doctrines on male authority, discipline, and obedience to perpetuate his crimes.....
  .....
  [Besides the Memoir snippets, there are also two subheadings following the above edited introduction, under the titles:
  The Witnesses and the D’Haenes
  Why Victims Don't Tell.
  You can just imagine the amount of exposure this will receive.]
• 

  dungbeetle

  Hey, Marv, that's not how I recall this 'discussion'; I don't recall the whole thing 'this way' at all.

  But that's just my recollection.

  Right now I think Bill has more immediate and pressing concerns than 'your understanding' of 'his poistion' what ever that is.

  And Lone Wolf, I'm going to waste time explaining to you the board history of Marvin Shilmer, Pathofthorns and Silentlambs. You can do what I did and spend two days researching it. Then you can put it into a word file and sit and stare at it like I did the other day ---before my 'ranting'(as 'fric-and-frac' called it)on the board.

  As far as harming anybody's causes---the causes are doing just fine thank you. They have a life of their own and are bigger than any of us.

  As far as 'these men being good allies'; first of all, Bill knows who his friends and allies are. Second, judging by the history between these posters, they might all be better off sticking to what they know best: Marvin--blood; Bill-- child advocate; Pathofthorns--well, darned if I know what he does.

  Ranting and raving is what I'm good at. Ask anybody...

  UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

  
• 

  LoneWolf

  dungbeetle --- LOL. I like your answer.

  You are correct that I have not spent two days in researching their history. Frankly, I can't, as I'm up to my rear in allegators these days and haven't the time.

  Personally, I'm rather fond of my enemies. They are my best allies, as I learn so much from them that I can benefit from. It drives them wild to see me enjoying that, and provides marvelous entertainment at the same time. The key to accomplishing this is keeping a cool head and sense of humor while the attack is going on. It is in this sense I am speaking when I express the wish that Bill would not be so touchy and instead analyze what he is receiving a little closer.

  Usually, your enemies give you all the ammunition you need without meaning to. It's far easier to recognize it without anger acting as a distractant.

  Perhaps in this light you can see that regardless of whether Marvin or Path are friends or enemies (I don't think they are enemies), and regardless of the history, Bill would be much farther ahead by keeping his cool.

  Yes, this cause is bigger than any of us. However, I know of one man who nearly collected $60,000,000 dollars from the WTBTS, losing only on appeal, the sole reason being that he lost his cool to the extent that the Society's lawyers were able to paint him as a radical. His name is Alvin Hansen of Ashland, Oregon. I've personally talked with his lawyer, publisher, and the nearby office of the F.B.I. on the matter.

  The Society will try this same tactic on Bill --- and succeed --- if he doesn't keep his cool. This is another reason I am concerned.

  I may not agree with all of your conclusions in the past, but I will be the first to say that you do not rant and rave. You express yourself well and your conviction and concern come through very clearly. I respect that --- big time.

  Keep your chin up, kid.

  LoneWolf
• 

  bluesapphire

  Joelbear, BINGO when you said:

  Good grief, elders sure as hell can motivate people in all other types of directions, some healthy and some insane.

  Elders should certainly be able to convince all but the most irrational people (who should be referred to a physician) that crimes have to be reported.

  It brings to mind all the talks, articles, cargroup conversations about when we know of a sin we need to report it to the elders.

  With the same energy and enthusiasm that elders give these talks, they should suggest -- no inculcate -- the importance of reporting child abuse to the authorities.

  Why is it that this issue remains ambiguous? Why can't people see that there is a clear double standard?

  With or without a state law requiring reporting, the Society could do itself a favor while at the same time protect the innocent.

  In fact, a talk should be circulated about how disgusting child abuse is and child molestation and they should bring up the fact that all adults are required by law to respect the superior authorities and report child abuse. They should STRESS it.

  This is not complicated. All these convoluted arguments are rediculous. It is black and white. If they require sins to be reported to elders, then they should require the sin of disobeying the superior authorities to be a judicial matter.

  Then all the dubs would rat out all the child molesters the same way they rat out smokers of hash.