Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro 224 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Jeffro

  scholar:

  Also I checked Martin Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology and his outline of Hoshea's reign and the Interregnum agres with that of WT scholars.

  I should also add that Anstey claimed (incorrectly) that there was an 'interregnum' of eight years (rather than the Watch Tower Society's incorrect ten years) prior to Hoshea. As a result, Anstey has Hoshea's reign beginning in Ahaz' 12th year, and not his 14th as dictated by the Watch Tower Society. Anstey, therefore, was not plagued by the problem outlined in the initial post in this thread, and didn't have to make up a claim about counting the reign of Ahaz from some 'vassalage' (as the Watch Tower Society claimed a few decades ago). Additionally, Anstey claimed it was an actual "interregnum" marked by "anarchy" during which "Hoshea did not himself begin to reign", and not the misuse of the word by 'scholar' to mean reigning 'in some sense'.
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  AnnOMaly

  The audience that received the word of Jehovah as recorded in Jeremiah 29 were in fact those exiles of the first deportation as I have already stated and they were now in exile in Babylon or other places such as Ezekiel. This prophecy also states that the time would come for their release from Exile and that Exile ended with the Return of the whole population in 537 BCE the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. The simple fact of the matter is that there was a body of exiled people in Babylon as a result of Nebuchadmezzer's incursions into Jerusalem and all of these had to await the fulfillment of the seventy years otherwise you have several Exiles which of course becomes ridiculous.

  So you agree that the letter of Jer. 29 was addressed to the exiles 'at Babylon' who had been taken with Jehoiachin. Therefore, the 'you' of v. 10 specifically refers to this group and not to the inhabitants of Jerusalem who had not been exiled at that point. Good.

  Now we are back to the problem of God telling these exiles 'at Babylon' that they would be 'at Babylon' for 70 years. With WT chronology, they would be there 80 years (617 - 537 = 80). How do you account for that? These are the options:

  1. God couldn't count.

  2. God misled the exiles 'at Babylon' by giving them a false time-frame.

  3. 'At Babylon' is a mistranslation and should be 'for Babylon' which better fits linguistically, contextually and historically.

  Which one are you going for? It's a no-brainer, really, isn't it, Neil?
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  Jeffro

  scholiar:

  The simple fact of the matter is that there was a body of exiled people in Babylon as a result of Nebuchadmezzer's incursions into Jerusalem and all of these had to await the fulfillment of the seventy years otherwise you have several Exiles which of course becomes ridiculous.

  If it were really the case that Jeremiah chapter 29 referred to a period of 70 years that started only once "all of these" Jews were in exile, then the Watch Tower Society should say the 70 years began in 602 BCE. Just face it, 'scholar'... you're wrong.

  According to the Bible, there were about the same number of people in the deportation in 582BCE as there were in 587BCE. But neither of those groups were the recipients of the letter contained in Jeremiah 29, which was received in 594BCE by Jews who had been in Babylon since 597BCE.
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Post 4222

  Not at all for nothing of consequence happened in 602 BCE. The simpler fact of the matter is that the Exile could only begin when certain key events happened and so itwas that the seventy years began with the Fall -destruction of the Temple, the city ,deportation to Babylon, evacuation to Eqypt etc. In short, all of the things that would constitute an Exile occcurred or were set in motion with what occurred at the Fall in 607 BCE.

  Your argument for the beginning and ending of the seventy years was and is always 'fuzzy' as I have repeatedly told you in the past.

  Have you got a copy of that letter and is it postmarked with the exact day month and year?

  scholar JW
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  AnnOMaly

  Not at all for nothing of consequence happened in 602 BCE. [WT time]

  Are you saying the deportation of 745 souls is of no consequence?

  Have you got a copy of that letter and is it postmarked with the exact day month and year?

  The copy of the letter is in the Bible - Jer. 29. The time of the letter is soon after Hananiah's false prophecy which is dated.

  (Jeremiah 28:1-4) . . .Then it came about in that year, in the beginning of the kingdom of Zed·e·ki′ah the king of Judah, in the fourth year, in the fifth month, that Han·a·ni′ah the son of Az′zur, the prophet who was from Gib′e·on, said to me in the house of Jehovah before the eyes of the priests and of all the people: 2 “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said, ‘I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon. 3 Within two full years more I am bringing back to this place all the utensils of the house of Jehovah that Neb·u·chad·nez′zar the king of Babylon took from this place that he might bring them to Babylon.’” 4 “‘And Jec·o·ni′ah the son of Je·hoi′a·kim, the king of Judah, and all the exiles of Judah who have come to Babylon I am bringing back to this place,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘for I shall break the yoke of the king of Babylon.’”

  (Jeremiah 28:15-29:10) . . .And Jeremiah the prophet went on to say to Han·a·ni′ah the prophet: “Listen, please, O Han·a·ni′ah! Jehovah has not sent you, but you yourself have caused this people to trust in a falsehood. 16 Therefore this is what Jehovah has said, ‘Look! I am sending you away from off the surface of the ground. This year you yourself must die, for you have spoken outright revolt against Jehovah.’” 17 So Han·a·ni′ah the prophet died in that year, in the seventh month.

  29 And these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the remainder of the older men of the exiled people and to the priests and to the prophets and to all the people, whom Neb·u·chad·nez′zar had carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, ... ... ... For this is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: “Let not YOUR prophets who are in among YOU and YOUR practicers of divination deceive YOU, and do not YOU listen to their dreams that they are dreaming. 9 For ‘it is in falsehood that they are prophesying to YOU in my name. I have not sent them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”’” 10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at for Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’
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  scholar

  AnnOMaly

  Post 3786

  The letter of Jeremiah 29 was addressed to the group of previous exiles in Babylon as shown in the first three verses of that chapter. Yes the group referred to in verse 10 is also those of the first deportation. Ann you are so brilliant in noting this fact!!!!

  However, the 'sting in the tail' is how the audience changes from verse 16 whereupon Jeremiah now turns his attention to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and gives similar warnings with consequences then in verse 20 it appears that he now addresses the entire nation as Exiles which of course would include both groups. Whatever the case it can be plainly argued that the fulfillment of the seventy years was applicable to the entire nation exiled in Babylon or elsewhere on the basis of all of the seventy year corpus.

  Nowhere in Scripture is the Exile described as having a length of 80 years for this is simply a product of your imagination. LOL

  scholar JW
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  AnnOMaly

  However, the 'sting in the tail' is how the audience changes from verse 16 whereupon Jeremiah now turns his attention to the inhabitants of Jerusalem ...

  So the audience of v. 10 is still the exiles in Babylon ... who would be "at Babylon" 80 years rather than the stated 70.

  Nowhere in Scripture is the Exile described as having a length of 80 years for this is simply a product of your imagination. LOL

  LOL. It's a product of simple arithmetic under the WT scheme: 617 - 537 = 80. That's why the WT scheme doesn't work for Jer. 29.
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  scholar

  AnnOMaly

  Post 3788

  In the overall scheme of things I must answer Yes! Jeremiah simply stated the fact of the matter for off to Exile they went. Naughty people.

  Glad to see that you have a copy of the original. Is it postmarked? And are you reading it correctly? You have nicely reproduced here but really What is your point?

  scholar JW
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  AnnOMaly

  I already highlighted the dates involved. Yes, I am reading it correctly. I am sorry that you are having trouble understanding the point. Try harder. It's not difficult to join the dots.
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  scholar

  AnnOMaly

  Post 3789

  Technically speaking the original deportees had a longer exile than the next deportation but Jehovah had decreed that the Exile would be only seventy years not eighty because the exile was commensurate with servitude to Babylon and desolation of the land so could only commence with the Fall in 607 BCE. In fact we do not know how long that group lived in Babylon for nor do we have the demography of both groups in Babylon. Ezra of course does provide some demographics for the Returnees just prior to the Return in 537BCE. I hope this helps as you seem to be stuck on the figure '80'.

  scholar JW