by prologos 111 Replies latest watchtower bible
Snare& Racket: re photons
Energy has to be supplied to have these photons appear and to be emitted.
that energy came either from the sun (stored in biomass or lifted as water, or moved by wind through heating) or nuclear, and then via ingeneous generating and transmission devices, all not self-creating. so
follow the energy.
cant leave:
when the proposition is made "the universe created itself" it is understood we are considering a tangible entity, space, matter, energy.
applying the notion of a beginning to a non-material entity like a creator takes our thinking outside those constraints.
just keeping it simple, at the level of OUR universe,
given that all we see in nature, and all what we have wrought,-- did not create itself, without energy input,
how reasonable is it to be convinced that the BIG start-up was self generating?
I do not have to speculate about the mechanism of material creation, but trying to extend the "it is turtles all the way down" idea beyond the boundries of OUR universe , as you suggest, would take me unto shaky ground. so to speak.
The idea of something making itself is quite paradoxical.
But yes I believe you are correct, nothing in the observable universe comes from nothing, in that no energy or mass is ever created, only transformed.
applying the notion of a beginning to a non-material entity like a creator takes our thinking outside those constraints. just keeping it simple, at the level of OUR universe,
So filling the gaps in our knowledge with the supernatural, unquantifiable and unmeasurable is acceptable?
But are you saying god came from nothing? Not just a simple package of energy, but a highly complex, sentient creator - just popped into existence!!!-cantleave
I actually think God evolved gradually over billions of years before he was evolved enough to create the universe and everything in it. Kate xx
Evolved from what?
Hi Prologos,
"Watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself. but: parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy. No THING has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge."
These issues are "origin of..." questions. One of the mistakes we made as Witnesses (under the influence of the publications of course) was intermixing origin of questions. Making the assumption that understanding the origin of one thing can be easily transferred to an understanding of the origin of something completely different.
Biological reproduction and subsequent evolution of living things is not the same as other origin of quetions.
Not the same as origin of the first cell.
Not the same as origin of planets.
Not the same as origin of stars, galaxies and of course the universe itself.
The worse case of these intermixing is confusing the origin of human output like computers, cameras, cars, etc, with the output of biological processes such as living things.
And, if one is unable to answer an origin of question, this not knowing, should never be confused with knowing. We just don't know might be the answer for the moment. Naturally the unknown draws us in an fuels our imagination, and it may be exceedingly difficult to be content with our ignorance, but it is what is.
Cheers,
-Randy
Evolved from what?-WMF
Matter, or Dark matter, or photons from sub-atomic paricle reactions, or even electron collisions could have coused matter to evolve.
How do you think evolution started WMF? What is your persoanl opinion?
Kate xx
Prologos, I see you've skipped right past abiogenesis and are now talking about the origin of the universe. You cannot imagine a spontaneous explosion so it must not have happened. I would appreciate it if you would address one at a time. I thought my links were useful.
http://gawker.com/5911029/holy-hell-rocks-are-now-spontaneously-exploding-in-peoples-pockets
So BEFoRE the universe was created by God, you think God evolved from the matter that made up the universe he hadnt yet created?
