JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    It is completely consistant with other scriptures that these ones Jesus is talking to considered themselves christians but didn't "behave" like a person who has the indwelling Spirit enabling them...they remain carnal (2 timothy 3:1-5 these behaviours are happening in the christian congregation...brother against brother) and because of that they were cast off as goats And not inheriting the kingdom that was promised to those in the covenant.

    If people can enter the kingdom by treating the brothers of Jesus Christ well then the core gospel message, "come to Me"... is largely irrelevant.

    love michelle

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    scripture indicates that even those who have turned to Jesus for salvation can loose their salvation by turning away. It is entirely consistant with a JUST God. Yes, it is entirely consistant with scripture that those who have denied the Lordship of Jesus Christ are cast off even if they treat His brothers well. The NT is all about a PERSONAL salvation in Jesus Christ or you're lost.

    even moses and the entire generation that went out of egypt perished without seeing their "inheritance"...the land that God gave them!

    Unbelief is a sin...john 8:24...it is the spirit of anti-christ, tammy.

  • tec
    tec

    There are a couple of things that might help one to see.

    For one... both the sheep and the goats are judged on the basis of what they did to "even the least of his brothers". So there is a separtion between the sheep/goats... and his brothers.

    Second... Christ gathers all who belong to Him as His brothers upon his return. They meet him in the sky and are changed together... those who are still alive and those who had fallen asleep. They are not gathered along with the nations and judged in the separation of the sheep from goats. Because there is no judgment for them. His blood covers them and they have forgiveness of their sins. They do not need to fear the second death (judgment).

    Consider also the resurrection of the dead from Revelation. This is the second resurrection, and these too are not Christ's own brothers because all of his brothers (those who had died and those who were still alive) were gathered to Him when He returned. So from the last two thousand years (and however many more to come; as well as from before the last two thousand years), there are also those who died who were not Christians. Yet there are from among these ones, those whose names are written in the lambs book of life.

    So it is not just those who were Christians in their lives who enter the Kingdom. Those who were Christians take part in the first resurrection; they are not judged, their sins are covered by the blood of the lamb; they reign with Christ in his kingdom a thousand years. He shares that reign with them.

    But there are also subjects of the Kingdom. GUESTS of the wedding feast... but not the BRIDE.

    There are a couple of other passages that might help:

    "He who receives you receives me..."

    "If anyone gives a cup of cold water to one of these litle ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

    Even so, the message, "come to ME" is not irrelevant at all. To name a few things: such ones are in union with Christ; they are one with Him... and have joy and love and peace in Him. Such ones may hear and follow Him; such ones are not judged, but have crossed from death to life; such ones have his teaching, his guidance, and such ones know God, because they know Him. And again... NO judgment. Because their sins, that they will commit, are covered. They will not go naked and exposed.

    But who among the brothers of Christ who has been shown kindness and love by someone who did not know Christ (though are known BY Christ due to their own deeds/words)... would be distressed by such ones being shown mercy and being invited into the kingdom? Such ones would REJOICE. And did Christ not say that such ones would have been doing such things for Him... and would he then repay their show of mercy to one of His own and so to Him with a casting out into the outer darkness, the same as the goats?

    They showed mercy and love - revealing what is in them - and mercy and love is shown to them.

    (moses and that generation will still be in the kingdom. Moses as an elder... those from that generation if only because they are Israel, and all Israel will be saved)

    Peace and love to you,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    I am also not disagreeing with you, Perry... in regard to the 144000 and the Great Crowd ALL being made clean in the blood of the lamb. The two (Israel... not the Jews alone, but 12000 from all twelve tribes... and gentiles) becoming one, in Christ.

    These are all the Bride... there are not two hopes or classes of Christians... but ONE hope and ONE Body.

    The wts teaches its members to REJECT Christ, to say NO to Him and the new covenant in His blood. And every year, that is what they do. There is NO basis for this, especially when Christ clearly says TO eat of his flesh, and TO drink of his blood (of the new covenant).

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • designs
    designs

    Romans 6 is an example of why Jewish/Christian groups like the Nazarenes and Ebionites considered Paul an apostate. Romans etc., in the Pauline line, are why the early Jews who hoped Jesus was the real jewish messiah dropped Paul like a hot plate. Paul here completely flips Jeremiah 31 to support his new religion.

  • designs
    designs

    Maybe you Believers can answer a few questions-

    None of you, I would presume, would say a journal like the Watchtower is inspired, you may also describe it as inaccurate at times, inventive (as in it makes up its own teachings), manipulative (as it seeks to direct its readers to a particular conclusion). So why, with everything that is known about the compilation of the New Testament, do you give it any serious faith based credence.

    Baffled in California

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    The truth:

    Original Sin: Telomeres with a decaying DNA sequence due to blind evolutionary process

    Saviours: Elizabeth Blackburn and Tetrahymena

    Redemption: Resveratrol and genetic therapy (like Glybera).

  • Perry
    Perry

    Interesting exchange between Myelaine and Tec. I knew it was only a matter of time before this got brought up. These kinds of questions are going to be common among JW's and ex-Jw's. So, we might as well grapple with them now.

    I'll try to succiently state the issue: If we are saved by the blood of the covenant and not by works, then how is it that the sheep are allowed into the Milenium based on how they treated Christ's brothers? Though not brought up by Meelaine and Tammy, one could also ask how Jesus could make the statement: "the one who has endured to the end is the one who will be saved".

    1.) First let me state that all of these statements are true. To understand, we're going to have to adopt the 30,000 ft. view instead of the 25ft. view. To do so, there is no better way than to look at Daniels' 70 week prophecy as a template.

    2.) We also need to understand the definition of what it means to be saved, and what we are saved from. And, can we be saved from more than one terrible fate? We also need to understand what a sheep is and if a sheep can be in a positionally different condition than a saved person.

    But even before this, we need to understand that the church age is a great parentheses in the plan of God that he started with mankind beginning with Abraham. In Old Testament times, the church age was a mystery and was not seen by the OT prophets, though there are a few vague allusions to it. The prophets (and Jesus was one of them) spoke primarily to the Jews, not to the gentiles. Like the chart below illustrates they spoke about current events and could see into the future Milenium and also knew about Judgment Day. The Church age (the age of grace) was not seen and was not generally spoken about (there are exceptions though). In the chart below, the prophets saw and wrote about the peaks, but the valley of the church age was generally not.

    We know that 69 weeks of years in Daniels' prophecy elapsed, and exactly on time the Messiah appeared. But then the prophetic clock stopped. This ushered in the age of Grace, the church age - which was unseen by the Old Testament prophets. But, what about the 70th week? God still owes the Jews one more week, the final week. This final week will begin with a Peace Agreement broked by the Anit-Christ with modern day Israel. At that time the Age of Grace (the Church Age) will be over.

    God dealt with the nation of Israel based on what they did; similarly during this final week what a person does will also imact their destiny during the final 'week' of Daniel's prophecy. Apparently, how a person treats the Jews (Christ's brothers) during this time will determine whether or not they are allowed to enter into the Milenium. If they weren't already, probably at this time the ones allowed to enter the Millenium will be "saved" by faith in the blood of the covenant from not only this judgment of who gets to enter the Millenium, but also from the Great White Throne judgment of the unsaved at the end of the Millenium.

    Now, we know that there will be sin and death in the Millenium, and at the same time people will live to great ages:

    People who live during the Millennium will not die young. A person one hundred years old will be considered a child, since, presumably, a person could live throughout the 1000 years in the restored environment (Isaiah 65:20-23). Sickness will not be a problem because "The sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in its wings" (Malachi 4:2). Later yet, after the New Earth is established, the Tree of Life will be accessible to mankind. Its leaves are "for the healing of the nations" (Revelation 22:2).

    So, probably some of the children of the original subjects of the Millenium would later choose to sin and would somhow die during that time. While I do not think that the sheep who are allowed to enter have glorified bodies like the church age saints have who were by that time previously raptured, one thing is for sure - they are still declared righteous by their faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and the blood covenant.

    So what I'm saying is that while treating Christ's Brothers (the Jews) kindly during the Great Tribulation might get you entrance into the Millenium (if you are lucky enough to survive until the end), it won't be enough to spare you from the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millenium.

    Whole books could be written on this subject, and there are acceptable variations of the above template I've laid out. But, I believe the above represents a sampling of mainstraem conservative and historical Christian thought on this matter.

  • designs
    designs

    "the Church Age" "God still owes the Jews one more week"

    So in Perry's religious circle you can have some who go into the Millennium without being in the new covenant but the jw world view is all wet.

    Believers tend to resemble Trekkies and Lord of the Rings fans or is it the other way around.

  • designs
    designs

    Perry should disclose his following of Clarence Larkin, 1850-1924, who wrote works such as "Dispensational Truth" (God's Plan and Purpose of the Ages) his charts resemble Russell's in many respects although differing on interpretations. C.Larkin was in the camp of Darby and Scofield in their time.

    You think Russell, Johnson and Franz were a box full of crackerjacks with Bible stuff you can't believe what these guys were about.

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