JW's Unanswerable Question & Why Doesn't Everyone Take Them to Task For This?

by Perry 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Perry

  tec,

  Sounds like we are in basic agreement. I am still unsure as to whether or not the 144,000 tribulation Jewish believers and the blood washed great crowd covenant members (tribulation survivors) are part of the bride of Christ.

  My understanding is that the OT Jews were the bride (wife) of Jehovah, the NT believers (during the church age) are the bride of Christ and the billions of people born during the Millenium are subjects of the Kingdom and its heirs, primarily Jesus.

  This is all a moot point as far as salvation goes. We are ALL saved from the GWT Judgment at the end of the Millenium by nothing more or less than the grace of God expressed in the Blood Covenant and our faith in it. "We are saved by grace through faith".

  Perhaps others more knowledgeable could comment on the bride of Christ aspect?
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  tec,

  Sounds like we are in basic agreement. I am still unsure as to whether or not the ... [blah blah blah]

  Perry, you do know that Tec has a direct line to Jesus. You should be more than "basically" in agreement with her because of that.
  You should simply ask her to ask Jesus about anything you are unsure of.
• 

  designs

  Dispensationalism, which is being pushed here, is built on some literal interpretations of scriptures and some presuppositions about humans all of which are really wrong, let's be frank.

  Adam and Eve were real people and the first humans who lived about 5774 years ago. That a divine being purposely set in motion this BIG scheme of tests, subtrifuge with predetermined periods of shifting morality for and against certain humans and groups, and seeing the world of humans as either "saved" or "unsaved".

  Adults buy into these types of explanations of reality for several reasons. To teach a child these ideas other than for historical purposes related to western religion's effect on civilzation is really cruel.
• 

  tec

  Good morning Perry (and also you, OTWO... did Cofty tag you in or something, lol?)

  Some of my understanding from my Lord is this (and do not worry about OTWO... feel free to test against Christ, ponder, ask, pray, question, set aside, check against what is written, etc... rather than take my word for anything; since it is Christ that one is to listen TO, no one else is the Truth and not all inspired expressions originate from God):

  When Christ returns, He gathers to Him all who belong to Him. Those who are alive who are changed in a twinkling... and those who have fallen asleep (the ones under the altar as written about in Revelation, who ask how much longer they must wait and who are handed white robes (spirit bodies made clean in the blood of the lamb) and told to wait a little longer... until the full number of their brothers are to come in).

  These who belong to Christ are made up of the 144 000 of Israel (of which the Jews are only a portion... two portions actually: Judah and Benjamin, from the two tribe kindgom of the south. There are still the other ten tribes, 12000 from each one, that had made up the 10 tribe kingdom of the North. They might not know who they are in the world, but God recognizes them by their blood)... so.... the 144 000 of Israel AND the Great Crowd from every tribe, nation, language, and people.

  These 2 have become 1, in Christ.

  These two make up the Bride of Christ.

  So...

  Christ returns for His Bride (also called His Body, His brothers) and they are 'married'.

  Christ establishes His Kingdom, and shares the rule of his kingdom with his brothers/bride/body.

  This is the millenial reign.

  Invited into the Kingdom at the onset of the millenial reign also are the sheep who are alive at this time (from the sheep and the goats parable) Where the nations are gathered, and separated. The sheep are invited into the kingdom as well, and the goats are sent into the outer darkness (outside the kingdom)

  At the end of the thousand years, Satan is released, and misleads the nations outside the kingdom into coming against the kingdom, convincing them that they can take it. So they (gog and magog) ride out against the kingdom, the camp and people who God loves, and 'fire from heaven devours them." (remember that God is a consuming fire; that He also states that He is a wall of fire around new jerusalem, in Zecharia 2:5) Satan somehow decieves the 'goats' that they CAN take the kingdom (they will not surely die...sound familiar?); and they WANT to believe him and so they ride out. Note that it is not God who rides out after them, but they who ride and come against his people.

  THEN the resurrection of the dead occurs; and those who are resurrected come before the throne of God, and are judged according to what is written in their books. Those whose names are also written in the lamb's book of life are resurrected to life (given a spirit body); those whose names are not are resurrected to judgment. (lake of fire)

  Hope that helps you to get a sense of these truths, even if just in regard to who the Bride of Christ IS.

  May you be given ears to hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life." Let him who thirsts and him who wishes, "Come." Let the one who hears also SAY, "Come... and take the free gift of the water of life."

  Peace to you and your loved ones,

  Your servant in Christ,

  tammy
• 

  myelaine

  Oh goody...

  Perry and tec basicly agree about some event that, at best, can only be approximated as to time, sequence and actual content.

  Perry, have you forgotten that tec does teach that (other) people don't have to make a decision for Christ?...that is an anti-christ teaching. 2 john 7:11

  wow...
• 

  Perry

  myelaine,

  I can't say that I disagree with anything substantive that Tec wrote direcly above. As for anyone being saved without having made a conscious decision for Christ, there is little to support that in my opinion. However, there are a couple references that make me think it might be possible. I would certainly never teach such a thing though because it wasn't the message that was delivered to us from the apostles. But I try not to limit the providence of God in my own mind at least.

  tec,

  If the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven during the 7 year tribulation period here on earth (as many Christians privately believe), then the 144,000 Israelites and the Great Multitude of other believers that survive the tribulation would probably not be included in the "Bride of Christ" even though they are all still part of the New Covenant and are declared righteous by the poured out blood of Christ in their stead.

  My main point is: There is no biblical imperative that requires that the members of the New Covenant be limited to only the "Bride of Christ", that I'm aware of. It is the Watchtower that makes that limiting distinction. The New Covenant is "for the forgiveness of sins", and not for a heavenly hope as opposed to a earthly hope per se. That is a misdirection and sleight of hand tactic. The primary hope of Christians is not exclusively for a destination, ie. heaven or earth, but rather to escape the Judgment due us for our sin, which is guaranteed by God's own blood.

  Acts 20:28 "Feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD." - KJV
• 

  kurtbethel

  There is no scriptural support for getting salvation through obeying the commands of sociopathic men.
• 

  NeverKnew

  Marking.
• 

  yadda yadda 2

  Spot on Perry. It's a completely unscriptural teaching. Being a Christian and being in the new covenant are concomitant, inseparable. No such thing in scripture as a Christian who wasn't in the new covenant. It's like saying there was a Jew who wasn't in the Mosaic covenant.

  Nobody can escape Adamic death without being in the new covenant, period. JW's are convinced they are going to pass right on through Armageddon wearing white robes standing in the 'naos' inner sanctuary itself without being in the new covenant. Ridiculous.

  It's obviously a 'good news' way beyond what Jesus or the apostles taught. It's Rutherford's 'good news'. JW's need to decide who they believe, the apostles gospel as recorded in scripture or Joseph Rutherford's gospel.