abortion vs holocaust

by unstopableravens 692 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • caliber
    caliber

    Cofty i said, yes because the purpose was not to kill the baby, the babys death was not the goal - Unstop

    Is not he saying if the sole purpose was to get rid of the baby.. it would be wrong... but yes the baby is going to die

    with the purpose of saving the mother ? The idea is so unthinkable or repulsive that he wishes not to use the word kill.

    Much like we call a death sentence by the state an excution not murder or killing ... but has the same end result.

    ... just as when a close family member dies many prefer to say "I heard your dad as passed away "rather than

    the blunt "I hear your old man is dead"

  • cofty
    cofty

    Unstop - I had decided to ignore your fireman illustration because it was self-evidently silly but let's just take a minute to get it out the way.

    If a firefighter only has opportunity to save one of two people of course she doesn't need to shoot the one she can't save. They will die in the fire and the firefighter can rest assured she did her best.

    In the case of the ectopic pregnancy it is the continued life and growth of the baby that is going to kill the mother.

    The options are stark.

    Allow events to continue and both will die - this was the position of the Malta and Irish governments until recently and is still in force in Vatican City

    or

    Take the life of the baby. In other words perform an abortion.

    What is the ethical thing to do?

  • mrhhome
    mrhhome

    Folks,

    Raven has answered the question. In principle, he does not believe that the mom's life is more important than the baby's life. In practice, he acknowledges that if you cannot save the baby in any circumstances, no reason to take mom down with the baby.

    Stop being a moral coward and give a clear answer. - Cofty

    Cofty - Here we go again. Are you intentionally trolling, or did you just lose your medication? Do you need therapy for some lingering issues with the JW, or are you just the type of coward who jumps on people when you think the momentum is going in your direction?

    I realize unstop would like to nail me down on my stance, to shake me off the fence so to speak, but there's a reason I won't weigh in with an opinion. It's none of my business. - jgnat

    jgnat - It is a little unfair to insist that raven give you a clear answer on a marginal case, when you are unwilling to take a position yourself.

    • Why do you think that it is none of your business? Do you think that society has no interest in (a) when a life begins or (b) when we are justified in ending a life? Isn't that the most basic point of law? To protect life.
    • Let's follow your first breath standard. What if a baby is born premature and put on a ventilator? Are we justified in killing it? Your standard presents as many problems as the "life begins at concept."

    Have any of you who are ganging up on raven answered the question "Do you support abortion in cases that do not involve rape or incest?" You all are arguing over 10-15% percent of the cases and ignoring the other 85-90%.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Caliber - He is talking out of both sides of his mouth

    He said...

    i just dont believe in killing one to save another- Unstop

    no killing the baby to save mom - Unstop

    So let's see if he has the moral courage to give us a clear unequivocal answer. He started the thread and still refuses to clarify his position.

    Mrhhome - there you go again imagining I care about your opinon of me.

    Stop the sophomoric insults its embarassing for you.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I asked my sister once, who was soon to graduate from medical school, what the grossest thing was that she had to do. I was expecting something scatological. She said, "Anyone can have a baby, no matter how unfit they are." That got me thinking. Long and hard.

    My son spent some time on the street and believe me, that carried with it a whole bundle of horror stories. One such horror is a couple he knows, both drug addicts, where the wife got pregnant. They live off conning other street people out of their social service checks and "grazing" in dumpsters and people's back yards. When she was pregnant they were living in condemned housing. Their housing has improved, but the little girl is sometimes removed from the home and there's lots of social work supervision. The father is dying from liver failure. That little girl will likely need extra supports for the rest of her living days. Hopefully the pattern does not repeat when she reaches childbearing age.

    The ideal of course, is that this couple would have kicked their addictions or been cognizent enough to consistently use birth control. But they're not.

    If you are wondering why I didn't fly out on the street like a hero and save that little girl, my son follows the street code and never gave me their real names or their address.

  • unstopableravens
    unstopableravens

    im glad at least a few ppl see what im saying in its context.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    mrhhome: It is a little unfair to insist that raven give you a clear answer on a marginal case, when you are unwilling to take a position yourself.

    I did several times. For the ectopic pregnancy, the viable, living, breathing mother's life takes precedence over the non-viable fetus.

    Ravens asked me about the twenty-four year old college student who is overwhelmed and is unprepared for the responsibility. A potential abortion of convenience.

    I say that is between the mother and the doctor. Essentially the "blue" legislation that we live under now. I say life begins with breath, so the fetus is not fully alive yet. It's the mother's decision, with the ethical guidance from the doctor.

    Why do you think that it is none of your business. Do you think that society has no interest in (a) when a life begins or (b) when we are justified in ending a life? Isn't that the most basic point of law? To protect life.

    I say the state has no business. I say I have no business in my neighbour's bedroom, or in their doctor's office. My definition of when life begins makes abortion a moot point.

    Let's follow your first breath standard. What if a baby is born premature and put on a ventilator? Are we justified in killing it? Your standard presents as many problems as the "life begins at concept[ion]."

    The lungs are viable.

  • caliber
    caliber

    Cofty ... I stand corrected.... in your last post...

  • cofty
    cofty

    im glad at least a few ppl see what im saying in its context. - Unstop

    Yes. Tammy, Mrhhome and Caliber have said that as they understand it, you are in favour of an abortion if it is necesary to save the mother's life.

    Are they correct?

  • Retrovirus
    Retrovirus

    Well for one, I think I get it.

    Make abortions illegal, blame, shame and punish all concerned in such.

    Even though you have been repeatedly been shown that this will certainly increase maternal deaths and injuries from backyard abortions and will not reduce unwanted pregnancies.

    This is not about saving lives, mothers or babys. this is about imposing your rules on others.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit