Question for apostates! (page 2)

TheStumbler

@ Friendaroonie,

I have tempted to set up some fake studies as well and act as someone sincerely interested. Just out of curiosity really. I had studies when I was a child but I was a lot less credulous then. I personally felt that the Watchtower was wrong (I just couldn't believe the flood story) but I was not able to articulate my skepticism then.

I had some success with a die hard JW recently. I got them to agree that claiming 'true science' doesn't contradict the Bible is a meaningless statement if what is defined as 'true science' is determined by whether it agrees with the Bible.

TheStumbler

* more credulous

Ruby456

tough question stumbler and I'm not an apostate. can I still reply to you? what I have found is that most of the jws I have felt my way with have been there and gone back stronger than before but they are more understanding and more flexible than they were before they'd questioned. I tell myself that at least they have contested their beliefs at some point. I'd like all jws to be given this opportunity so wish you the best

edit: my observations are based mostly on those who have gone back so my results are skewered. but from my secular studies i know that every group (even the most fundamentalist ones) contains questioners and debaters and that seeking flexibility is a part of human nature - the problem is to what extent are they silenced by leaders?

EdenOne

Although I don't accept your definition of 'apostate', here's my insight on your question:

A faithful JW won't be persuaded by logical reasoning, because the fundamental of his belief system is anchored on the notion that the Jehovah's Witnesses have the "truth", and everything else out there is satanic thinking, and this thinking should be avoided like the black plague. This is tied with the notion that the Watchtower organization and their leadership are "spirit-directed" personally by Jehovah and Jesus Christ. Who could argue with THOSE, right?

So, in order to avoid a JW to stop thinking when their beliefs come under scrutiny, the thing that needs to be done first is to deconstruct the MYTH that this organization and its leadership is - or ever was - "spirit-directed". Once you manage to see that there is no direct line between this organization and the heavenly powers, then you start realizing that is a man-made construction, self-appointed as God's chosen sole channel of communication on earth. In doing this, you are destroying their basis for authority. Only then you may feel free to research other sources of material other than those heavily filtered and skewed by the publications of the "faithful and discreete slave". And this is where you are fully exposed to reallity and wake up to a different vision of the world, where things aren't black and white, where your choices aren't narrowed to "Jehovah's Organization" [read: the watchtower] or "Satan's Organization" [read: everything else], and you open your eyes to evidence that the teachings of the WTS are seriously flawed. But in order to get to this point, first one needs to establish that the Watchtower Society and its leadership are NOT being directed by God and Christ.

There are several ways to get there. What personally did it for me, coming from a social sciences background, was to examin the history of the origins of the Watchtower Society. This was very telling, because I realized that brother Russell wasn't an original thinker, that his theology was crafted after the ideas of many other religious teachers in the wake of Millerism; that he came from a historical and geographical context that produced him. This convinced me that he wasn't especially "spirit-directed", but simply a christian in search of answers. He developed those answers, but many others developed similar answers, with variations that resulted in many Christian churches. Many survived to this day, many fell by the wayside into oblivion. By a set of circumstances, the Jehovah's Witnesses turned out to be fairly successful in this faith market of the "second awakening". Once I examined the historical context of the origin of the Watchtower Society, I was ready to read Raymond Franz's "Crisis of Conscience", and that was the final nail on the coffin of the "Governing Body" leadership's credibility. From that day on I stopped seeing these religious leaders as having any special divine guideance that would set them apart from any other Christian religion leadership. They are all man-made, none of them was appointed by Christ or God.

And it went from there ...

Eden

Black Sheep

I'm not an apostate of any church as I never joined one.

Trying to extract a cult member from any cult using tactics that the leaders have warned them about is pretty much futile. It only has any real chance of working when the member already has doubts.

You have to try and get to them while they are trying to convert you, not when they are trying to protect their delusions, themselves, their families and their fellow cult members from you.

TheStumbler

Hi EdenOne,

It seems your awakening (realising the organisation is not spirit direct) was for intellectual reasons and a result of your own research. Do you think you would have come to the same conclusions if an outside source revealed the organsiation's history to you rather than finding out from your own research?

And I think I agree with you generally that logic and reason won't deconvert a staunch JW but the fact the Watchtower tries so hard to prevent its followers' being exposed to critical information means that it must be somewhat of a threat to the religion's closed belief system.

unstopableravens

yes, my mom came out and came to christ, it took time and pataince,and a friend, thou he went to a life of heavy partying :(

designs

People wake up to the grip of religion (not just jw-ism) for many reasons. Unfulfilled expectations, moral conflict, education, family.

Many JWs go to other religions after leaving the Wt., its only natural not to want some god-based belief system after being a believer for so long. They, jw's, have had a "holy book" sitting in their laps for decades which is filled with lies, racism, unscientific data, but a few nice sayings about things like Doing Good To Others. Its those little nice things that keep the blinders on to the more egregious things in that "holy book".

I went to other religions after leaving the Wt., I just wasn't done yet with god. In 1995 the "Generation" change opened my eyes to the GB being like Oz, just an old man behind the curtain pulling levers. After a 3 congregation witch hunt to get me Disfellowshipped my emotional connections to the Wt. were severed for good.

jwfacts

To 'True Believers' any amount of contrary evidence and illogical inconsistencies in their beliefs can be dismissed or explained away.

That may be correct, and my mother would fall under that category. But how many are True Believers? I would say the vast majority are just hanging on, and have their doubts. A doctrinal debate will not get them to leave, but it will leave food for thought, so when a situation arises, that final emotional straw, they will already know that they doctrine are not water tight.

EdenOne

TheStumbler: It seems your awakening (realising the organisation is not spirit direct) was for intellectual reasons and a result of your own research. Do you think you would have come to the same conclusions if an outside source revealed the organsiation's history to you rather than finding out from your own research?And I think I agree with you generally that logic and reason won't deconvert a staunch JW but the fact the Watchtower tries so hard to prevent its followers' being exposed to critical information means that it must be somewhat of a threat to the religion's closed belief system.

I know that i wouldn't be persuaded unless by my own critical research. When in doubt, trust no one but yourself. If someone would come to me and attempted to persuade me of anything, I would use every intellectual resource available to evade or reject those reasonings. But being interested in doing my own research I was able to crack the nut open. At least that's how it worked for me.

Eden

Question for apostates!

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