Raised On the Third Day?

by TTATTelder 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    If we, as humans, acknowledge that God cannot make mistakes, cannot be wrong, then it doesn’t need to be proved (the ultimate axiom if you like). And if we know that, then all the angels must have known that as well.

    That's not the issue of universal sovereignty according to JWs. The issue was whether humans wanted and needed God to rule over them, and whether they only served God for the benefits it gave them or out of love for God (think Job and how Satan made his accusation with the other angels as witnesses). That's why Man's been cast out of the garden of Eden and had God's blessing taken away from him, so he can prove whether he can make it on his own and so some individuals can choose to follow God. When man's attempt at independence has completely failed (according to some arbitrary line drawn in the sand), God's right as universal sovereign will be proven and he can act against Satan and the wicked, and reward the faithful.

    Mind you, none of this "heavenly court case" is clearly stated in the Bible, even in the NT reinterpretation of the issues, it's just an extrapolation based on scriptures here and there.

  • eyeuse2badub
    eyeuse2badub

    If Jehovah is almighty, he makes the laws and rules, right? Why did the rules and laws necessitate animal sacrifices, the slaughtering and pouring out of blood? Slaughtering living, breathing mammals as blood sacrifices is repulsive to most, if not all humans. Are not humans created in God's image? So if Jehovah is pleased with bloody animal sacrifices, should we humans also find them pleasing? Somewhere there is a disconnect.--Just saying!

    eyeuse2badub

  • designs
    designs

    Did the God-part even die, how is that possible in christian theology.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    The tragedy behind the Savior's suffering is that he, being perfect, was subjected to what no other man could have suffered, or endured. Certainly, there were many in Jesus' day who died a horrible death on the cross; however, Jesus' most severe suffering began in the Garden. Both the fall of man and his redemption began in a garden. And though no one knows the extent of what he suffered, he had to take upon himself the sins of this entire world. This means that in some way we don't understand, he experienced everything...every sickness, every infirmity, every emotional and physical woe suffered by every man, woman and child since the Earth began; thus, no one can ever say they suffered more because he suffered your afflictions.

    He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53)

    As many see it, the Lord took upon himself the ills of mankind to such an extent that his suffering was more than any mortal could have withstood. By the time he was arrested, he had gone through much of his suffering; a suffering that caused him to shake with pain and bleed from every pore. In the Discourse on the Abbaton, a very old work, we see just how bad the suffering was said to have been:

    And [the Father] heaved sighs over [Messiah], saying, 'If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command.’” (Ernest A. Wallis Budge, Coptic Martyrdoms (London: British Museum, 1914))

    According to this text, the Messiah's mission will be one of extreme anguish:

    There are souls that have been put away with thee under My throne, and it is their sins which will bend thee down under a yoke of iron and make thee like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will choke thy spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these souls thy tongue will cleave to the roof of my mouth. Art thou willing to endure such things?

    The Messiah will ask the Holy One, blessed be He: Will my suffering last many years?

    The Holy One, blessed be He, will reply: Upon thy life and the life of My head, it is a period of seven years which I have decreed for thee. But if thy soul is sad at the prospect of thy suffering, I shall at this moment banish these sinful souls.

    The Messiah will say: Master of the universe, with joy in my soul and gladness in my heart I take this suffering upon myself, provided that not one person in Israel perish; that not only those who are alive be saved in my days, but that also those who are dead, who died from the days of Adam up to the time of redemption; and that not only these be saved in my days, but also those who died as abortions; and that not only these be saved in my days, but all those whom Thou thoughtest to create [evidently as mortals] but were not created. Such are the things I desire, and for these I am ready to take upon myself [whatever Thou decreest].

    The suffering and death of the Messiah was required for our salvation, and even God himself could not change that (despite what the Muslims think). The reason is that God must balance Justice with Compassion. His compassion brought about the redemption, but it was not an easy measure for either the Father or Son because of the suffering that was required, which had to be a power of a God, perfect in every way. So it wasn't the death that they drew back from, but the intense suffering that was of concern.

    .

  • Ultimate Axiom
    Ultimate Axiom

    Apognophos said “That's not the issue of universal sovereignty according to JWs.”

    I disagree. Fundamentally Jehovah effectively said to man, “you need me to rule over you”, and He said to Satan, “man will serve me anyway, not just for the benefits”. In both cases, man and Satan (plus all the angels that followed Satan) said, “God you’re wrong, and if you give us the opportunity, we’ll prove it” And Jehovah of course wasn’t clever enough to realise that you don’t need to prove an axiom and went along with it.

    And therein lies a paradox. As you don’t need to prove an axiom, in so doing Jehovah made a mistake. Therefore it cannot be axiomatic that he is infallible. But if he’s not infallible, he can’t be the Almighty God. But if He is the Almighty God, it must be axiomatic that he can’t be wrong. But he was wrong in thinking he needed to prove an axiom – and so round and round in circles we go.

    It’s axiomatic to me that this whole things is nonsense.

  • Laika
    Laika

    JWs do serve God for what they get out of it. Why go door to door if there's no paradise? I don't understand why this is considered a bad thing. It seems quite reasonable given the circumstances.

  • Ultimate Axiom
    Ultimate Axiom

    Quite right Laika, everyone thinks they’ll get something out of it – heaven or paradise depending on what God you put your faith in. But I think the point they make is that people don’t "just" serve God for that reason - in other words they would do it anyway. I wouldn't, but maybe there are some that would.

  • DS211
    DS211

    He also didnt start the "preaching campaign" until he was approx 33 or whatever and onoy preached 3 and a half years....yet the WT wants all to preach their entire lives

  • Heartofaboy
    Heartofaboy

    Really interesting points being made here.

    I have had these nagging thoughts for a long time regarding the value of Jesus sacrifice.

    The WT in the past has said the anguish of Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac serves to demonstrate the anguish Jehovah went through allowing Jesus to come to Earth to be sacrificed for mankind.

    There is a major difference between Abraham & Jehovah though.

    Abraham as a human had zero control over his situation, he was required to kill his son himself & offer him up as a burnt offering.

    Abraham had to have faith that god would still fulfill his promise regarding his descendants even though his son would be dead.

    God didn't need faith so therefore was in a far superior position to Abraham as he had total control over the situation Jesus was in when being killed.

    God was able to raise his son to life in a very short period of only three days, less than a blink of a God's eye.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Leika: JWs do serve God for what they get out of it. Why go door to door if there's no paradise? I don't understand why this is considered a bad thing. It seems quite reasonable given the circumstances.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses understand very little about the fall or the atonement. They believe Adam and Eve mortally sinned by partaking of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. But God wouldn’t be God if he had no foreknowledge of events. He purposely placed the couple in an environment with an arch-deceiver and knew full well that Adam and Eve would fall. In fact, Jesus was selected beforehand to be mankind’s redeemer and intercessor. That’s why Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has written extensively on the fact that the earliest Hebrews saw Yahweh, not as the Father-God, but as one of God’s preeminent sons and intercessor. Christians, on the other hand, recognized Jesus as the Father’s only begotten Son.

    The Watchtower philosophy has always been one of restoration. Jesus died to restore man to his previous status as a garden-dwelling “pet” of the Father’s, living apart as inferior to the angels.

    But most Christian sects see the sacrifice of Jesus as moving man up exponentially. Instead of moving man back into a garden, the Father’s intent was to use the atonement to advance man into becoming like Christ, becoming joint heirs with Christ.

    Adam and Eve, as created, did not know good from evil. They had no glory, and their bodies were simply immortal and nothing more. With the atonement, man had the potential to become a great being of both power and glory. Resurrected with a perfected body of flesh and bones, Jesus was able to pass through ceilings and closed doors, as well as ascend into heaven and to change his appearance. Had he shown himself to the apostles in all of his glory, he would have burned them to cinders. Adam and Eve could not have generated that power and glory, but those who receive eternal life can attain to the same glory. As John wrote:

    Through the atonement, man went from being merely a creation to being sons and daughters of God. As such, we became eligible to becoming part of the royal family. As the Greek Orthodox put it, “GOD became as man, so that MAN may become as God.”

    DS211: [Jesus] also didn’t start the “preaching campaign” until he was approx 33 or whatever and only preached 3.5 years....yet the WT wants all to preach their entire lives.

    Yes, and there’s no scriptural support for that at all. Anciently, people were called of God and ordained to fulfill such missions which were, by the way, of limited duration. Recall, too, that Jesus’ primary mission was to establish his church and, more specifically, to be “lifted up.” Jesus’ primary mission was to fulfill the demands of Justice, allowing mankind not only to be restored to life, but to gain eligibility for a major upgrade.

    "...for when we see him, we will be
    like him, for we shall see him as he
    is. And every man that hath this
    hope in him purifieth himself, even
    as [Jesus] is pure."

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