Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Cold Steel

  I've read many bad books on the book of Revelation. This one was BY FAR the worst. If any work were to violate that last chapter of Revelation, the one that states: " For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18-19)

  I suppose this nonsense is related to the fact that the WTBTS discourages higher education. They take literal prophecies and turn them into figurative ones; then they obfuscate the facts in an attempt to make it sound more reasonable, but it's clear they're fudging the details in an attempt to distract the reader from what the scripture is saying. In the chapter dealing with Revelation 11, for example, John is told to measure the third temple with a rod. But this has to be a spiritual or figurative temple since the third temple does not exist! Never mind that most Christians note that Ezekiel gives the Jews detailed instructions on how to build the temple and, given this reference by John, conclude that the temple has yet to be built. The authors of the red book don't buy into the idea that the Jews or Jerusalem has any part of the latter days. To them, the temple is a spiritual representation; Jerusalem is Israel, which in turn is "spiritual Israel" which is to say...them. The two prophets of Chapter 11 are figurative and they represent the Bible Students before 1924. In 1924, they had a huge revival which, they said, frightened all the rest of Christendom. This revival was the resurrection of the two prophets and all the pioneers are the fulfillment of those two prophets. It's all complete fantasy.

  If the members of the WTBTS knew what crap this red book is, they'd be embarrassed. It goes beyond bad exegeses and the copy I have actually has notes in it, as though the reader was taking it seriously. If people would just read the Bible and spend less time reading the publications, it might dawn on them that they're being bamboozled.

  David Koresch did the same thing. He'd take one of the great kingdoms symbolized by horns and beasts in Daniel and Revelation and tell his followers that it represented their little compound in Texas. The red book also reproduces "decrees" such as "A Challenge to World Leaders" (1922) and "A Warning to All Christians" (1923). Again, these without one iota of authority from God. How can they make such decrees without first being commanded? If one examines the Old and New Testaments, the Lord usually commands such decrees or other actions. The leadership, with no revelation, decides (on authority it believes it gets from the Bible) to issue these challenges and warnings. The word the scriptures use for such unauthorized actions, I believe, is "presumptuous."

  But this red book on Revelation is still one I'd like in my library.

  P.S. -- The book the Pioneers loaned me has the dates the guy read each chapter. Most were read in 1995, so thanks for the changes. And yes, I wondered how the writers were able to apply things to themselves, such as Jerusalem = Israel = Spiritual Israel = WTBTS, especially when Jerusalem was "spiritually" called "Sodom and Egypt"! John also added, "and where our Lord was crucified." If he said Jerusalem was spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, how can the Society then say that Jerusalem is spiritual Israel? Of course, if they believe themselves to be the faithful and discreet slave, then they get to determine the menus for the spiritual food, right?

  Thanks for all the responses.

  .
• 

  rawe

  Hi Cold Steel,

  "If I wanted to purchase one [Revelation! It's Grand Climax at Hand!] from a Pioneer, how much would it cost?"

  In most countries, no specific amount is suggested[1]. Instead the household is told they can make a small donation to cover the cost of printing and support the world wide work of Jehovah's Witnesses. In terms of obtaining literature, a full-time preacher (pioneer) or ordinary Witness (publish) can both bring you this book, if you ask when they visit. You can also go to a Kingdom Hall and ask the the literature counter and if they have one on hand, they'll give it to you.

  Keep in mind, most Witnesses will see this as an indication of your interest in the faith and will designate you for a RV (return visit) with the hopes of starting a "Bible Study" (not really a study of the Bible, but instead a indoctrination process) with you.

  Cheers,

  -Randy

  [1] Other JWN members may be able to confirm this, but the "donation arrangement" where no specific amount is asked, may have been triggered by a lawsuit again Jimmy Swaggart Mininstries, where in the Watchtower Society gave some support to JSM. I don't know for 100% if this is true or not, but have heard it from a few different sources.
• 

  MrFreeze

  The trumpet blasts corresponded to different conventions in Ohio, despite them being out of order chronologically...

  How is this any better than the Garden of Eve being in Mississippi or wherever it was according to the Mormons?
• 

  rawe

  Hi Cold Steel,

  "They take literal prophecies and turn them into figurative ones;"

  A fair amount of weight is given to Rev 1:1 that mentions it was presented in "signs".

  "Revelation 11, for example, John is told to measure the third temple with a rod. . .that the Jews or Jerusalem has any part of the latter days."

  Jehovah's Witnesses developed a frustration in regards to literal Jews, since early attempts to bring them the "good news" did not succeed. Thus, nearly all Biblical references to Jews, especially in the NT have become part of a "replacement theology" where literal Jews are replaced by figurative ones. The literal destruction of the temple in 587 BCE was big event in the minds of OT writers. Not too surprisingly the repeat of this in 70 CE would be a big item in the mind of Jews and Christian of the NT era. What did it portend? Would it be restored in some form in the future? These thoughts show up in Revelation 11 which echos Ezekiel 40.

  "And all the pioneers are the fulfillment of those two prophets. It's all complete fantasy."

  Of course it is -- but what else would you expect? Jehovah's Wtinesses are going to interpret Revelation in terms of happenings to their organization, despite how insignificant the organization is in reality.

  "If the members of the WTBTS knew what crap this red book is, they'd be embarrassed."

  In my experience most Witnesses are not deeply interested in this material. They are sort of awed by how "deep" it is and feel a warmth about how significant all these happenings were in the past. How brave those little band of Witnesses who were slaughtered and left in the broad way (Rev 11:8) but where then brought back to life by the spirit of God.

  "The copy I have actually has notes in it, as though the reader was taking it seriously."

  This book have been covered several times during the congregation bookstudy. Members are expected to pre-study the material before the 1 hour lesson in the group. The range of pre-study can be from none at all to fairly complete. But there is no need to say "as though" it is very likely the person who wrote those notes did in fact take it seriously.

  "If people would just read the Bible and spend less time reading the publications, it might dawn on them that they're being bamboozled."

  Those invited to the Bible School of Gilead (training for Witness missionaries) are encouraged to read the Bible through before arriving. There are a number of youtube videos by an Ex-Gilead graduate who talks about this exact effect. What it was like to read the Bible apart of "studying" it with the publications. Yes, indeed, an entirely different message can come through.

  "David Koresch [Vernon Howell] did the same thing. He'd take one of the great kingdoms symbolized..."

  Vernon's background was Seventh Day Adventist, which in some ways has similar origins and beliefs as the Witnesses.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
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  Ding

  The GB knows what all the symbolism in Revelation stands for.

  Then they get "new light" and they are even more sure that they know what all the symbolism in Revelation stands for.
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  kaik

  Hi Cold Steel,

  I remember reading and studying this book in the 1990's and was certainly interesting, but I could not agree with some of the far fetched doctrines as you had pointed out:

  To them, the temple is a spiritual representation; Jerusalem is Israel, which in turn is "spiritual Israel" which is to say...them.

  Anyone with critical thinking skills will see this is one of the many nonsenses propagated by WT. Small isolated group of Christians in 1919-1925 unknown to the masses of millions could barely be the prophecised witnesses of the Revelation. But this is not that uncommon for JW who believe that their organization was predicted in Bible. Also it is interesting to note that JW claims that ethnic Jews are repudiated and do not hold any special relationship with God. They will insist that entire Jewish race (nation or faith) was rejected due not accepting Jesus, regardless the historical knowledge that majority of Jews lived outside Judea scattered throughout Roman and Persian empires without having whatsoever knowledge what was happening in Judea around 33 AD.
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  Cold Steel

  Thanks again, and especially to you, Randy and Kaik. Great points.

  This "replacement theology" would be difficult to pull off if people would read the source material. I, too, approached the study of Revelation with some trepidation; however, after one reads a few prophecy books, it all starts to make sense. The best way to do it, I've found, is to read conflicting opinions and books. So far, the books I've gotten the most use out of are two books by evangelical writer Joel Richardson. I have some minor difference of opinions with him, but on the whole, he's really opened my mind. I was a bit disappointed that he didn't cover the two prophets of Revelation 11, but that's because he has no clear cut views on them. Clearly, according to John, these two prophets will be two men, but will they be ancient prophets who were "translated" or men from our own dispensation?

  I was recently surprised to learn that the JWs don't believe in translated beings like Enoch, possibly Moses, Elijah and John. And since they don't believe in modern prophets (except GB members acting in concert), the two prophets of Revelation have to be composite representations. This creates enormous problems in one's eschatology. You see, the two prophets were represented by Zechariah as two candlesticks. We're told, " These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. " (See Zechariah 4:3 .) So if the two trees and two candlesticks represent the two witnesses, how can any theologian worth his salt then turn around and say the two witnesses, in turn, represent all the JW missionaries doing missionary work today, what are we to make of them being able to have fire proceding out of their mouth to destroy their enemies or " have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" or "have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues"? Also, how can these two prophets be "killed" and then resurrected? The authors of this abomination say this vision was just a representative vision, like the one Ezekiel had of the dry bones coming together and resurrecting, representing the restoration of the kingdom. But Ezekiel makes it clear what the relationship between his vision and the meaning was. But John presents his prophecy as a literal prophecy.

  If one reads Isaiah 53, it's clear the prophet is speaking of Christ. If one reads Zechariah 12-14, it's clearly literal. Or if one reads Ezekiel 38-39, it's clear that the prophecy is, again, literal. But give the GB any authority to interpret the scriptures and suddenly everything is figurative and invisible. Suddenly miracles cease and angels' trumpets become WTBTS decrees. Darkness in prophecy becomes not literal darkness, but "spiritual" darkness. In other words, if you can't produce real miracles and prophecy fulfillment, then it goes back to the fastest gun in the West routine. "You guys wanna see it again?"

  .
• 

  Narcissistic Supply

  Put down the Effing Crack Pipe!
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  rawe

  Hi Cold Steel,

  "So if the two trees and two candlesticks represent the two witnesses, how can any theologian worth his salt then turn around and say the two witnesses, in turn, represent all the JW missionaries doing missionary work today"

  A lot has to do with what one chooses to emphasize. When Russell started with Zion's Watchtower part of the focus was on the belief Jesus had returned and was (invisibly) "present". Notice how RNWT renders Matthew 24:3 "sign of your presence." So to make you impressed with me, how much I have God's spirt, etc, I'll get you to focus on that. I'll blather on and on about the Greek word there and how other translations like the KJV which say "sign of thy coming" have it all wrong. Maybe, just maybe you won't notice the parallel accounts at Luke 21 and Mark 13 don't have the word "present" at all.

  Same here, all we need to do is dive into forms of numerology. 6 means this, 7 means that, 10 means the other thing, etc. In this case 2 could indicate legally established, think "two witnesses" (Deut 17:6). So... there you go, two witnesses can now mean all the witnesses at the time.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
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  Julia Orwell

  Heck had I known you wanted one, I would have kept mine and sent it to you. You should be able to get one free, but they don't give them out to non-Jws that much. Just say you're really really interested in the book of Revelation and you've already studied with JWs in another town or something next time JWs come around. Still, I think it will be hard to actually get one. You could rock up at a KH in your suit and that and say you're visiting from interstate and need a Rev book for some reason, ie masquerade as a JW at the hall before the meeting starts and go up to the literature counter.