One of the problem with Revelation is that nobody knows what part is figurative speech, and what is reality (of the 1st century or distant future). JW make the same failure as did all other Christian denomination hooked up on concept of the Revelation and trying to build their theology around it. Nobody knows what are the meaning of these two prophets. Are they real indviduals, organization, or it is figurative speech? And list goes on. However, it is almost irresponsible when JW attempted to wrestle these two prophecies on history of their organization in 1914-1919-1925. This was the last book I had studied with JW, over 20 years ago; and was a deal breaker for me to see the illogical thinking of the JW organization. When I asked how they can confirm the identity of these two witnesses to them, they gave me some brochure dealing with history of the organization before, during, and after the Great War.
Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand
by Cold Steel 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Island Man
Spend your money on something more important and more useful . . . like toilet paper.
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The Searcher
Can you not download a copy of the Watchtower CD ROM and access it from there?
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Cold Steel
I'd rather have a hard copy. I'll ask the pioneers for one and see if they cobble one up.
How does one tell whether a prophecy is to be taken literally or is figuratively?
Let's take the JW Revelation book (hereafter called "Red Dragon") up on it's argument and compare Ezekiel 37 to the prophecy in Revelation:
Note how the vision is given. The Lord explains the resurrection process. First the body is formed, then breath is put into the body. In Hebrew, the word for "breath" and "spirit" is the same, so the breath represents the life, or the spirit of man. This entire experience is a prophecy, the Lord states. And who is the body being reanimated? Behold, saith the Lord, "these bones are the whole house of Israel" which will be restored through the power of God.
Now take the prophecy in Isaiah 53. Christians believe it's an obvious reference to Jesus Christ; however, most Jewish scholars believe it refers to the nation of Israel, again personified. If one goes back to the end of Isaiah 52, we read:
Verse 10: " The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." But what kind of salvation? How do we know this isn't simply a temporal salvation of the nation of Israel?
Because the books of the Bible were not written in chapters and verses, we sometimes have to go to the previous chapter to fully understand a prophecy. Verse 10, above, is an example. So if we continue to the end of Chapter 52, we read:
Because of the reference to "my servant," if we take it literally, as I believe we should, it makes far more sense. Jesus' suffering was so intense, we can understand why "his visage" (or countenance) was marred more than any man. This is a way of saying that his suffering would be greater than any other man in the human race. This is reflected in the Abbaton Discourse, a very old work, which reports the conversation between the Father and Son regarding the Son's mission:
This, of course, reflects the Christian outlook of the suffering of Christ, who suffered more than any man who ever lived, and did so for the sins of mankind. But notice the nature of the prophecies. Ezekiel's prophecy of the resurrection of a man was explained by the Lord as the restoration of Israel. But Isaiah 53, according to Jewish scholars, also is figurative and represents the nation of Israel. But Christians see this "suffering servant" as a spot-on prophecy of the Messiah.
Finally, going to Revelation 11, we read:
The only figurative aspects here are clearly stated. There is a literal temple that John is measuring, indicating that the Jews will build another temple before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The prophecy of the two witnesses, or prophets, also appears to be quite literal. The figurative representations aren't the two prophets, but the two olive trees and two candlesticks. The Lord also is quite clear in saying, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy" three and a half years. Further, we read that the Beast and the False Prophet will finally overcome the two prophets and leave their bodies on the streets of Jerusalem:
There is no indication that this is figurative in any way. The prophets were figuratively depicted by the two olive trees and two candlesticks. Now we're told in the Red Dragon that these witnesses aren't to be taken literally, but that they represent the combined forces of Jehovah's Witnesses, who were figuratively killed and then figuratively resurrected in 1924 by a resurgence of dedication. The trumps sounded by the angels, while clearly figurative, they say are declarations and proclaimations of the Society, which, the Red Dragon indicates, rocked the world leaders in fear.
So it's nice being part of biblical fulfillment where even God, the great Jehovah, is describing the work done by the Governing Body and the forces of the two prophets who represent them. Everything stays nice and unprovable. It's all invisible and no need for flashy miracles. Every prophecy means something else than what you think it is. But I think the JWs can't keep this up forever. Or can they? Those pioneers who visited me seem awfully convinced that the Red Dragon contains great wisdom. That anyone can put any credance into it at all is, to me, astounding.
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BackseatDevil
If you want the ramblings of a hallucinating madman broken down, I have several notebooks of mine I can sell you. Some even come with pictures!
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Cold Steel
I know what you mean.
I've been reading more of the Red Dragon, and I can't believe grown people are interpreting scripture in this fashion. I've read a number of various takes on what the book of Revelation means, and this book is by far the most incompetent. When a group of men (who have no degrees in ancient scripture or knowledge of apocalyptic writing) purposely take an English translation of a document and incorrectly apply homemade interpretations is laughable. When the WT people take a literal prophecy, such as the one cited above, and apply completely irrational interpretations to them isn't light, new or otherwise; it's fraud. It's like that compulsive liar on SNL.
"Yeah...that beast is...ummm...the United Nations...yeah...that's the ticket. And as I was telling my wife...uh...Morgan Fairchild...yeah, that's right...that the dragon was the...uh...Pope, yeah, and...the seven angels were B52s, yeah, and...." In fact, they ought to make him the official spokesman. One source states concerning the pathological liar: "This person may not be completely rooted in reality, believing the lies they tell, often in an effort to remedy low self esteem. Unlike telling a few fibs here and there, or slightly exaggerating the truth once in a while, the pathological liar lies about literally every aspect of his or her life."
I think the folks at Bethel do suffer from low self-esteem. If they couldn't find themselves in the Bible, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So Israel becomes "spiritual Israel" which becomes "Jehovah's Witnesses." And the two prophets are merely figurative references to today's pioneers. Anything is up for negotiation. This same source says: "Being lied to on a consistent basis is not only frustrating but also disrespectful to the other person."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4
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kaik
Cold Steel, I agree with you that the prophecy of two witnesses cannot match what WT is claiming to be (them). This is one the most far fetched doctrine that anyone with a critical thinking will reject it. Especially with the context of the time. However, I do not believe in rapture, so I cannot accept literal ascend into the heaven. Rapture is American concept invented by missionaries during the Second Awakening, and there are not even words in many European languages that could translate it (like mine).
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Cold Steel
The pre-trib rapture is a recent idea, but I don't think the rapture at the return of Christ is a recent concept. The prophet Zechariah tells of Christ's return in detail.
As you can see, prophecy is not too difficult to figure out. When people tell me about figurative fulfillments, I ask them to show me some. Those that have figurative or apocalyptic elements are rather obvious. That is, if you start reading about dragons, stars, beasts, horns and such, one knows one must look for literal elements. But when the prophets speak about things that are literal, you can pretty much bet that they're literal. Read Isaiah 53, for example. It's all about Christ as anyone who's read the New Testament can tell. The ones who don't want to find a literal fulfillment (like the Jews, who reject Christ) will mind a more mysterious angle.
As for the two prophets, Zechariah talks about two olive trees and two candlesticks, but doesn't tell us what they represent. John does, though. He tells us about the prophets and then said, "These are the two olive trees and candlesticks...." It's doubtful he would throw us another spiritual bone so that later someone could say, no the two prophets were actually two classes of missionaries that were abolished and then reinstated. By the time we're done they'll be two red ants on an ant hill somewhere in Tyre. Remember, too, it was the Beast who kills the two prophets. And as soon as the prophets ascend to heaven, the Beast is killed where he stands. So if you don't buy into the JW interpretation, well, it's just too bad for you.
But back to the rapture. Here again is Zechariah:
It's very easy to understand because it's all there. Does it strain critical thinking? Yeah, but so does the parting of the Red Sea, the virgin birth, the resurrection and the ascension. All religion does that, but I have no problems believing it. Note in the above the prophet states that the Lord my God (Christ) will come and "all the saints with thee." Saints means "holy ones" and can refer to the Jews, Israelites, early Christians and Christ's followers today. But John talks about how "every eye" would see him, including those who killed him. Is that a reference to the Jews he's with or those who were part of the Roman army and who are now in the spirit world?
Other than that, the scripture above is pretty clear cut.
If one reads Isaiah 63, it's difficult not to see this as Christ's second coming.
Clearly this is Yahweh speaking. He asks a rhetorical question, "Who is this that cometh....?" but then answers and says, " I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. " Again, it inescapably points to the fact that Jehovah is Jesus Christ, and that Jehovah is not the Father, but the Son of the Father. If the Governing Body is looking for some "new light," that should be good for a few lumens. I mean, "And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...." (Zech. 12) and " Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives...." Here we see that Jehovah's feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, when it's a clear reference to Jesus. "Hello, McFly!"
But that's another topic.
Jesus ascended into heaven and two
angels appeared saying he would come
in like manner. They were on the mount
of Olives, where it's prophesied he will
return..
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EndofMysteries
marked and I just thought the last part of the book of revelation in the bible, about any man adding to it being added to the plagues, etc, w/ the revelation book published by the WT and applying everything to themselves, did not not add to the bible book of revelation?
