by Londo111 95 Replies latest watchtower bible
The Forum in question is composed mostly of exs from South America and Spain. The strongest participants are the Spaniards and is lots of fun to read them; they are constantly making fun of the Spanish Branch and they can even mention who is monitoring their post on a daily basis.
Not that great participation from the US, some but not what could be expected, maybe is a reflection that as inmigrants we tend to be meeker.
Hecce: Not to bust your bubble but www.extj.com is just too small compared to JWN.
Only 15,000 threads, 284,034 posts...
I don't have any stats on JWN but assuming 20 threads per page, and 11,000 pages of threads, that amounts to 220,000 threads, and assuming an average of 15 posts per thread, that amounts to over 3.3M posts...
Now compare the JW stats:
Spanish-speaking JW's: Latin America: Approx. 2.5M Spanish-speaking JW's. (2013 Americas total: 3.9M, minus 700K in USA, 100K in Canada, and 600K in Brazil, assuming all the rest speak Spanish). I don't have the stats for Spain, but let's add 100K. That means that out of 7M JW's in the world, 2.6M, or 37% of the entire amount of JW's in the world, speak Spanish.
Native English-speaking JW's: We will assume that the following ratios apply: US (70%), Canada (85%), South Africa (30%), and the following at 100%: U.K., Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Jamaica. (rounded figures)
This gives us with 840K + 100K + 30K + 145K + 65K + 30K + 15K + 15K = 1.24M
(It's a complicated subject, especially if I consider non-native English speakers... therefore I am just counting "native" English speakers).
So the Spanish JW population is more than double the size of the English JW population, and yet their exJW population is 1/12th the size of the English-speaking one.
Chance for growth??? YOU BET!!
Estimados amigos:
(Hablaré en español, porque se supone que los que están hablando aquí conocen la realidad del mundo hispano y pretenden servir de traductores, pues de no entender lo que digo en español difícilmente podrían traducir... y difícilmente su opinión sería de utilidad)
Londo dio una idea que se agradece y ha generado mucho entusiasmo en ustedes. Pero debo hacerles unas presiciones: Aunque es verdad que el crecimiento en USA viene principalmente del mundo hispano, hay tantos sitios de denuncia en español como en inglés: foros, blogs, facebooks, etc. La gran necesidad de traductores no es tal... En lo personal, traduzco las cartas de USA e Inglaterra al español... pero también tenemos interés en las cartas de las sucursales de Portugal y Brasil y de lugares tan alejados como Hungría... sin mencionar que colgamos cartas de las sucursales latino-americanas y española. De todas maneras, se agradece la intención de Londo: JW.Facts es una excelente página, si quieren traducirla al español ¡excelente!, pero no parece necesario.
Respecto a las charts, pues nosotros las conseguimos en inglés y las traducimos. Aquí, por ejemplo, unas páginas en español que se especializan en tratar la historia de la WT de forma seria o de contextualizar sus citas: http://vigilandoazion.blogspot.com/ http://atalayando.blogspot.com/
En cuanto a usar el traductor de Google... sencillamente no es buena idea: La traducción quedaría "tarzánica".
Ahora, es curioso ver a Hijos de la Watch aquí. ¿Eres el mismo que comentabas donde JHK y otros blogs? No niego el prejuicio personal de algunas páginas... pero es el mismo que puede tener Cedars al comentar asuntos de su vida privada, o al cometer bastantes desaciertos con la AAWA o con este foro... Concuerdo con tu diagnóstico del "problema español" en extj.com: Los españoles estás sobre representados con respecto a los latinoamericanos pero esa realidad de a poco vamos revirtiéndola. Además los administradores, el matrimonio Fuentes, son cubanos radicados en Florida. En ese sentido, la situación es parecida con respecto a este foro que también es privado.
Por otro lado, la idea más valiosa que se ha vertido aquí, a mi juicio, es la de ABibleStudent. Que este foro tuviera un subforo en español nos permitiría afianzar lazos y tener un intercambio de información mucho más fluido.
Hecce... ¡tus aportes son excelentes! Los españoles entretienen... de modo parecido como Outlaw (y otros) se gastan sus bromas aquí.
Los comentarios de ILoveTTATT son reducciones de la realidad: Si bien es cierto que los españoles viven en Europa, eso no los hace automáticamente más cultos. Tal como en USA y en cualquier lugar del mundo la secta atrae a personas de escasos recursos y educación. Muchos de los españoles que están en el foro son limitados en estos aspectos y tenemos, en contraste, latinoamericanos con excelente capital cultural. En lo que tienes mucha razón es en la tendencia ocultista que tienen algunos sitios de denuncia contra la WT. Pero si te fijas bien, la teoría de la conspiración principalmente es una tesis sostenida por plumas españolas... En los Face abunda mucho la "predicación cristiana" como dices tú... de la misma manera como lo hace E-Watchman, o 4Jehova God, por dar sólo dos ejemplos...
Es verdad que extj.com tiene menos movimiento que este foro. Pero es porque hay más TJ de habla inglesa que de habla hispana. La gente de habla inglesa tiene más acceso a Internet que la nuestra. Y no hay que olvidar que la lengua litúrgica en la que habla el Cuerpo Gobernante es el inglés... su "latín" moderno. Por otro lado, contar a los chicanos en las cifras de hispanos es engañoso: Ellos no se sienten hispanos. Generalmente utilizan los sitios en inglés. Y es verdad que hay una gran mayoría que no participa ni en inglés ni en español: La realidad es simple. No se sienten ni hispanos ni anglos, y tal realidad trasunta al movimiento apóstata.
Lo de los hechos y no teorías, lo comparto 100%. Es la política de la administración del foro extj.com y también de mi humilde blog, que se dedica sin descanso a la labor de traducción y análisis no sólo de las cartas de USA... sino de todas las que podemos conseguir de todas partes del mundo. No trato temas doctrinales que poco ayudan a ver la verdad de la verdad, sino información objetiva, documentada y contrastada:
Hola Hildebrando. Si, soy el mismo.
Ya he mencionado en otros posts que hay abundante info en español y he hablado sobre el foro. Mi comentario sobre los blogs no debe interpretarse como una critica. De hecho, yo conoci la verdad sobre la WT en el de JHK y sigo el tuyo.
Pero creo que algo como jwfacts seria util como una referencia. Seria poner en una web negro sobre blanco, clasificado por tematica todo lo que queremos transmitir. Puede venir de traducciones o incluso de aportaciones propias (el tema de la seguridad social en la sucursal de España, por ejemplo).
Incluso poner links al foro, blogs, etc.
Encantado leerte por aqui.
hildebrando, hijosdelawatch, someone will be upset because of posting guideline 8.
Its true. Sorry. What I said is that although personal blogs and the forum in Spanish are great (in fact, i knew the TTATT on them) a website similar to jwfacts could be a good idea to have in one site all the info we have in Spanish or to translate the jwfacts site.
Also, having a jwn forum in Spanish (or a part of it in that language) could help.
The more information available, the better for those seeking the TTATT.
Rule #8 about a topic that has to do with the Spanish speaking community and TTATT can be overlooked. If someone gets upset go on google translate. For those of us who are bicultural and bilingual, this topic is important enough to be addressed in both Spanish and English.
Count me in for translating. I have a good command of English and Spanish, the latter being my native language.
Regarding JWFacts, it is well organized, well documented and easy to use. Show me a similar site in Spanish and I can say there's no need for translating. I doubt anyone can show me something as comprehensive and easy to navigate as JWFacts. You the man Paul!
Regarding objections (in Spanish above) to translating JWFacts, I suspect that Hildebrando may have a conflict of interest if he (she) is managing an "apostate" site already.
Paul, PM me or email me at [email protected]
Hi!
So that you do not cavalierly run afoul of our host's clear guideline #8, at the very moment when you mean to ask a favour of him (a new, foreign language subforum), I hope you do not mind that I translate (and interpret) your Spanish posts (above) to English. This may also satisfy the curiosity of some forum members, who may see their 'handles' mentioned in the flow of your posts. [Please excuse (and correct) any inaccuracies/typographical errors).]
Hildebrando:
"Dear friends:
(I will speak in Spanish, since it is presumed that if those who are participating here [i.e., in this thread] are familiar with the reality of the Hispanic world, and intend to serve as translators, fail to understand that what I am about to say in Spanish may be difficult to translate, then their opinion can hardly be useful.)
Londo's idea is appreciated, and has generated a lot of enthusiasm. But, I need to make some things clear: while it is true that the majority of the growth in the USA comes from the Hispanic community(-ies), there exist as many Spanish-language opposition websites as in English - in the form of forums, blogs, Facebooks, etc. There is no great need of translators... .
On a personal note, I translate [Branch/Bethel] letters, sent from the USA and England, into Spanish; but there is also interest in letters from the Portuguese and Brazilian branch offices, not to mention letters we have posted, which originate from the Latin American and Spanish branch offices. In any case, Londo's intent is a good one. Jwfacts.com is an excellent website; if people want to translate it into Spanish... fine! However, there does not appear to be any need for it.
Regarding the charts [diagrams]: we have already procured them in English, and we are in the process of translating them. For example, the following link leads to some Spanish-language pages that focus on a serious consideration of the Watchtower and its quotations in historical context: http://vigilandoazion.blogspot.com/http://atalayando.blogspot.com/.
As far as using Google Translate goes... it is, simply, not a good idea. The resulting translation would still be quite raw.
It is funny to see "Hijos de la Watch" posting here. Are you the same one who posted on the Donde JHK website, and other blogs? I do not deny that personal bias is present on some of the pages, but it is no different than that seen when "Cedars" posts about his private life, or when he makes some missteps regarding the AAWA on this forum. Also, I agree with your diagnosis of the "Spanish problem" on extjcom: Spaniards are over-represented, in comparison with Latin Americans. But, we are gradually reversing the trend. In addition, the forum's administrators - the Fuentes couple - are transplanted Cubans, living in Florida. In this regard - and in its private ownership, the situation is similar to that of this forum.
In my opinion, the best idea that has been put forward here, thusfar, is that of "ABibleStudent". Namely, that a Spanish language subforum be created on this website, which would allow us to reinforce our connections and enjoy a more fluid exchange of information.
Hecce, your observations are spot on! The Spanish [i.e., nationality, not language] posters on extj.com are, indeed, entertaining, much like Outlaw and his jokes on this forum.
It is true that extj.com is less active than this forum. But, that is because there are more Anglophone Jehovah's Witnesses than Hispanophone. Also, it must not be forgotten that the liturgical language of the Governing it is... English - today's "Latin". Besides, it is misleading to count Chicanos amongst the numbers of "Hispanics" - because they do not consider themselves Hispanic. In general, they use English websites. Actually, the majority do not participate online at all... in either English or Spanish. In reality, they do not feel that they belong to either the Hispanic or Anglophone communities, and this reality [also] epitomizes the apostate movement.
I completely agree with the concept of 'facts, not theories.' This is the policy of both the extj.com forum's administration and my own humble blog, which latter is tirelessly dedicated to the work of translation and analysis of letters of not only USA-Bethel provenance, but from anywhere in the world. I do not delve into doctrinal issues, which are of little help in seeing "the truth about 'The Truth'," but I do deal in objective, documented and verified information.
http://hildeydesa.blogspot.com/
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Hijos de la Watch:
Hi, Hildebrando. Yes - that is me! [Ref. "Are you the same one who posted on the Donde JHK website, and other blogs?"]
As I have already mentioned in other posts, there is abundant information already available in Spanish, and I have spoken of the forum. My comments on the blogs should not be interpreted as criticism. In fact, I first learned the truth about the Watchtower on the JHK forum, and on your own.
Still, I believe that something like jwfacts.com would be useful as a reference: to have everything laid out, in black-and-white, sorted by topic. This can come about through translations, or even through contributions of particular interest to us (e.g., the topic of social security and the Branch office in Spain).
We could even post links to the forum, blogs, etc.
It is a pleasure to see you here!
Buenos dias
When I made the reference to the EXTJ forum I wasn't in any way or manner disminishing this site. It was just pointing out that a lot of the information that was considered for translation is already there, normally Branch letters, manuals, outlines and everything else that is considered secret is posted in that forum. So my advice was more oriented to content than to level of participation.
I apologize for creating a misunderstanding and I hope that this will clarify matters a little bit.
Gracias Amigos
