i wish more churches would preach truth like this (page 11)

unstopableravens

Viv, If what he speaks is true, than it can only help you, if not than no worries

nicolaou

Eurgh! That guy is a retard, I'd be embarrassed to openly support his insane ideology. What a dumbass!

Viviane

That's a big giant IF.

I've not found a convincing reason to keep believing in the Bible.

J. Hofer

careful guys, you are supporting his persecution complex.

tec

Tec, when the bible speaks about salvation, what are we saved from?

Death. (all the verses where Christ speaks about people not having life in them, being dead in their sins; being separated from God; being outside of God's love)

Separation from God. (Colossians 1:21... and that verse is just to give you one example. There is much teaching about being separated from God, and being reconciled to Him in Christ; as the gentiles were separated from God - unders his wrath - but now reconciled to Him through Christ; and these are who Paul is speaking to here, and in other places.)

You HAVE to pay attention to who is being spoken to, the time that one is being spoken to, all of which may give you more of an idea about the context.

Because, Unstop, the apostles and early disciples did not go around preaching hellfire as their good news. People were already under the 'wrath of God' in that they were separated from Him, had no life IN them, Life that is in Christ and that Christ gives. Reconciliation in Christ rescues them FROM that and brings them INTO God's love.

Look at what is written in 2Peter:

'the present heaven and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.'

Of judgment AND DESTRUCTION.

He also says further:

He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyon to come to repentance.

Not wanting anyone to PERISH.

Now we can go back and forth on scriptures until... well, until Christ Himself comes with His Kingdom! But I would like for you to answer some of the points/questions I posed for you. Probably best if you just go back into my post at the top of page 4 and take it bit by bit.

Please also consider why it is that you are unwilling to give up belief in this doctrine of hell?

Well romans 5:9 states it is wrath.

And what is the wrath of God, Unstop? Do you know what that means? Is it not to be separated from Him? To be outside of His love? To be without life (and so to have death instead)?

The terrible things that man invents as punishments for wrath (in the flesh or in this doctrine of eternal hellfire... such as dantes inferno type hell)... and what God thinks of as 'wrath'; are not the same. To be under his wrath is to be outside of His love; outside of Him. Not to be reconciled to Him as we are in Christ, who gives us LIFE.

It does not mean something extra that man has invented.

Remember that saying... God's ways our higher than our ways? Man has invented some twisted meaning of that... as he twists many things. Like oh... hellfire is okay and people being tortured in it for eternity is actually just and loving... we just don't understand that because 'gods ways our higher than our ways'.

No. Wrong.

That is something man has invented. That is not something that was ever from God. Because man's ways are lower than God's ways.

who has this wrath , I's it not all who are botn sinners. Ephesians 2:1-8 shoes that we are all naturally children of wrath. And until we are savrd by grace we remain as such. Notice john 3:36 for those who do not obey the son the wrath of god remains on them. If ppl cease to exist how can gods wrath be on them? Look at danail 12v

Again, please consider what this wrath actually is... not what man has invented (because man's ways and thoughts are lower than God's ways and thoughts)

Look again at John 3:36... ask Christ to help you see and hear:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

WILL NOT SEE LIFE. That is the result of the 'wrath' being spoken of. Whowever rejects the Son will not see life... BECAUSE... the wrath of God remains on Him.

(although, as Christ also taught... those who do good to him, by means of doing good to the least of those who are his brothers... will not lose their reward, and are invited into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom)

As well... you have already read from Revelation that death and hades (you call hades hell) are thrown into the lake of fire (which is the second death, although you also think that is hell... makes no sense Unstop)

2 do you notice what some are awake to, everlasting, abhorance. Compare this to john 5:28 what type of ressurection a person gets depends on what they do before they die.

John 5:28 says rise to life, or rise to be condemned. Judgment and eeath is pretty condemning. Eternal too. No coming back to life from the lake of fire... you are destroyed utterly.

So... I already showed you how the word 'hell' is not spoken of even a quarter as much as the Kingdom, as you think it was spoken of MORE, thereby you were suggesting that hell was a more important teaching? It was not taught by the apostles and early disciples, at least not according to what is written, as shown in the examples above. I also showed you that the word translated into hell in multiple places is from hades or sheol (neither of which carry the meaning of the modern connotation of hellfire). I asked you this question:

Hold that in consideration with the verse in Revelation 20:15. Because if nothing else, this should be the one that shows you that this word, 'hell', has no basis for even being IN the bible. Hades (hell) is thrown INTO the lake of fire (also hell?) Even though the account says what the lake of fire is: the second death. This passage ALSO emphasises that those in 'hades' are resurrected and THEN judged. THEN thrown into the lake of fire (if their name is not written in the lambs book of life)

Ravens, does your understanding make any sense according to this passage? Because this would be according to your understanding: Those in hell are resurrected from hell to THEN be judged... and then thrown into another hell (which I assume you believe the lake of fire to be) again? Does that make ANY sense AT ALL?

Also these questions:

Your reference in Luke is the parable of Lazarus. Funny how the rich man thinks that a drop of water will soothe him if he is in eternal fire. That can't be literal, but the implication is supposed to be that he is literally burning in hell? Regardless, the word translated to hell... is hades. The same meaning as Sheol. The world of the dead. Where Job longed to go? (I think I remember that this was Job) And here is an important point regarding sheol/hades: The day of judgement had not yet come, with no doubt for certain regarding the people from the OT who also went to hades/sheol... translated as hell... so all these people in Hades... were being punished/tormented for what they have not even been judged for yet? Does that sound just?

I am not your enemy (and you do not seem to be my enemy), though some might see this discussion and think that is the case. But this doctrine does not hold up in light of the Truth (who is Christ); nor even in light of scripture and what is written; nor even in light of love. Hence the questions, because in answering them, you may be able to see or even consider these things, so that you do not have to believe this lie that man has taught, but can come to an accurate understanding of the Truth that brings LIFE.

You of course do not have to take my word for anything. Just as I am not taking this evangelists' word for what he calls truth.

Because if you want to know the Truth then go to the One who IS the Truth and listen to Him, and if you wish them, may you be given ears to hear Him when He tells and shows you what is the truth.

Peace to you as always.

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

tammy

cofty

Why can no two chritians agree on the central message of the gospel?

unstopableravens

Cofty, sure two christians can, I and mr washer agree, tec and her group agree.

unstopableravens

Tec, if the wrath of god is just death, than jesus's followers are more couragoues thsn him. He asked his father to remove the cup, if the cup of wrath was death, than jesus is weak because many have went to the cross singing hymms. The wrath that was poured on jesus was from the sin he took on

tec

And what happened to Christ, Unstop? Did he go to hell to be tormented? Was that the wrath of God that He suffered? Or did he suffer at the hands of men, then die (and then preach the gospel to those in the world of the dead), and rise to Life?

(I assume you are referring to his prayer... about asking God to remove this cup from Him? His 'fate' so to speak; what he was about to suffer at the hands of men?)

Wait... do you really think that Christ went to be tormented in a burning hell? That all of the people not yet judged (have not yet come before the throne of God) including all of Israel, who were being RESERVED for judgment... were being punished BEFORE the judgment?

Plus, you did not answer the questions or respond to the points that I made, again. Disregard that if you are about to do so...

Peace,

tammy

jgnat

Just curious, unstop and tec; do you both agree with the Nicene Creed? Which parts might you have a problem with?

Personally, I wish this preacher's congregation looked like this:

Empty Church

See, if you don't like it move along. As ravens suggests.

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

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