Apparently Loz and Tammy have never read John 17
i wish more churches would preach truth like this
by unstopableravens 258 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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unstopableravens
Cofty, lol yeah that prayer is more widely known than paul washers, or how about right after tecs proof text where jesus shies them how to pray in front of them.
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unstopableravens
*shows
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cofty
Its ironic that Tammy and Loz reject the authority of 99% of scripture but interpret the bits they do approve of with a crippling literalism.
I didn't get past the prayer either, Unstop, and there were things in that... well, not all he prayed for/about was truth. I thought perhaps he was going to give thanks, which is acceptable to do in public. Christ did so also. But a prayer like the one the preacher gave is one that Christ said should be done in private, behind closed doors, as dazed quoted Him as saying. - Tammy
Unstop, the above is the direction Christ gave. He sometimes publicly "gave thanks" but always sought privacy to pray to His father. I'm pretty sure Tammy acknowledges this too. - Loz
But if you notice, he didn't even pray with his disciples, he went off privately to pray. That was the example he set. - Loz
There has never been a more self-agrandising public prayer than John 17
Jesus Prays to Be Glorified
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved themeven as you have loved me.
When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley.
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tec
Tec sorry I've been off of the website for a few days lot of crazy stuff going on , anyway before I get into officail response about public prayer I want to first understand your position are you saying that nobody should pray at all in front of anybody else including the father with his children a husband with his wife the Elder at church what exactly is your position
I gave my position here from page three I think:
"But when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, wh is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is doen in secret, will reward you."
Again, he who is faithful in least, is faithful in much.
And I don't see there "But when you pray (your private prayers)... go into your room, close the door... But when you pray other prayers "corporate worship" prayers, yeah, you can do those on street corners and in synagogues, to be seen by men." Christ did not make an exception for the TYPE of prayers. In fact, the example he gives of how to pray IN CONTEXT is not a personal prayer at all. But rather, the "Our Father" prayer.
The context is how to pray. Christ even goes on to elaborate on that point, including giving a prayer TO teach (word and example). So you can pray with your children to teach them also.
Perhaps mrwasher was praying as he prayed to teach children whose parents had given them into his care about how to pray. I would not think that is the case, but mr washer would be the one who knows that, and so that would be between him and his Lord. But more likely, he simply believes that public prayer is allowed, though he has to interpret the instructions that Christ gave regarding public prayer as meaning something other than what they say.
However, my Lord reminds me that I recently learned:
If He spoke in a parable... He always explained to his disciples/apostles what He meant.
So if He meant something other than what He said... would He not also have explained that to them?
But He specifically said... when you pray, go to your room, shut the door, and pray in private.
Man has interpreted that as meaning something other than what He said. I don't think mr washer is deliberatly going against what Christ said, Unstop. I have no reason to doubt that he is completely sincere... and people can make mistakes or misunderstand; that does not mean they do not belong to Christ. But mr washer is rebuking youths for not doing as Christ said... telling them that this path will land them in hell... while proceeding to pray in public, in contradiction to Christ's intructions here.
As well, as Loz said above, Christ gave thanks in public on numerous occassions, so giving thanks in public is always permitted. This brings glory to God. (I mean, unless you are going to give thanks as that pharisee did... thank you that I'm not a filthy person like all these other people are, lol)
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Yes Cofty, I have read John 17. It is the only occassion where it seems that Christ did not go off on his own to pray; but prayed in front of the 12. Interesting to note that the words used for prayer in this entire passage are the same words used for ask or said, same as with Stephen during his stoning. Stephen was not praying to Christ... Stephen was speaking to Christ, calling out to Him. There is a different word used for prayer when Christ went off to pray on his own (all of those passages use the proper word translated as prayer), and that is the word used when He instructed His disciples to pray in private. That word is always used for prayer, but this word is not the same word used in John 17.
Again, that blue letter bible site is a good reference site for that.
Just an intersting note to keep in mind.
Peace,
tammy
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cofty
You have exceeded your own levels of dishonesty this time Tammy.
You assert Jesus never prayed in public.
I remind you of a long public prayer of Jesus.
You redefine prayer so that speaking to god isn't actually praying!
I like it when you do this because it publicly demonstrates the foolishness of religious faith.
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tec
I did not redefine anything. I simply looked up the meaning of the words, and those redefine the meaning. I am not entirely certain what it means that a different word is used... one that does not mean prayer... except to consider that this is a different thing than prayer. Same as the incident with Stephen.
I do know, however, what Christ taught that we are to do when it comes to prayer. So I will follow Him and His teachings, even the least of his teachings, unless He teaches me otherwise. Does that mean i have never made a mistake and interpreted something that he taught to do as something else? Of course not. Read some of my earlier posts and you will see that I used to think that communion was symbolic and not something He was telling people to do. This was from my own reasoning, before I understood that he can and does speak. And I was wrong. Does that mean i did not belong to Him? On its own, I don't think so. But it does mean that I was not listening to Him when I decided that He meant something other than what He meant.
Peace,
tammy
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unstopableravens
Tec, what about jesus prayer at matthew 6:9, 10.was that alone or in front of ppl?
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tec
That was him teaching others how to pray... in opposition to the babbling of pagans who think that their long prayers will be heard, but that God knows what we need before we ask Him, and so He shows those listening how to pray. This is in response to his disciples who had asked Him to teach them how to pray (a detail that is missing in Matthew but shown in one of the other gospels).
First he says pray in private.
Then he says not to babble.
Then he gives an example of a prayer without the long babbling.
Pray in private. Don't babble on because your father knows already what you need.
Those are his instructions on prayer.
Peace,
tammy
