tec, i am back i will responed to each of your points, if you dont mind i would rather take one at a time. two reasons.
Okay... but I am not so sure we will move past the first point. Because I don't know what I can show you that you should not already know about hell, just from what you learned about the meaning of the word from your time with the wts. If you reject their teaching simply on the basis that they taught it... then you are also rejecting the actual meaning of the word (s) that are translated, without cause, into "hell".
Personally, I think you should show me all the reasons you believe in hell, define exactly what you believe that place IS and when people go there... and provide the scriptures to back up your belief Then we can tackle THAT. So I won't discuss many details with you until you do that.
1) i can only type so much on my phone, and 2)we can address each thing in good detail. i will start with your first point.
My first point encompasses this part also:
He speaks a couple of times about the original greek meaning or translation of some words/verses and original beleifs/history/etc... and yet, he is not consitent enough to realize that the modern understanding and translation of hell (gehenna or hades) is not anything that the Israelites believed, or that Christ taught.
So that he (and evangelistic 'born agains' in general, I am assuming) is using a double standard. Using the original beliefs/history/even etymology of the word when it suits his purpose/point... and not using those things when it works against him.
you say from the start that he does not know christ because he teaches literal hell fire.
Yes, but not simply because he has a detail wrong about something Christ taught, or because he has misunderstood some detail. Or is lacking in knowledge about somthing Christ taught. But because this erronious teaching of hellfire goes against love. If he can think this about God... how can he know God (by knowing Christ?). But again, until you define hell, etc... we can't have a real discussion about it.
tec, it seems to me that you believe that if a person believes wrong about hell, then they dont know christ. if that statement is true, than if hell is real you would have to believe that you dont know christ.
Quite possibly, yes. But see above for more explanation on my meaning.
in the bible christ talks more about hell than heaven.
That may be so... but so what? Christ talks FAR more about the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven than He does about 'hell'. I put 'hell' in brackets, because the word is translated from various words that do not mean what modern man has described hell to mean. Sheaol, Gehenna, hades, etc.
In any case, i did a quick count, using the NIV. I may have missed a couple from any category. (note that various version will render hell as the translation more than others, including the KJV in the OT... where hell is definitely NOT supposed to be)
Matthew:
Kingdom - 29 times.
Hell - 7 times (of those, a couple are from hades specifically, one says eternal fire (think lake of fire, into which hades is thrown)
Mark:
Kingdom - 11 times
Hell - 3 times
Luke
Kingdom - 21 times
Hell - 3 times
In the book of John, Christ speaks more about life and the resurrection, though he does mention the Kingdom a couple of times. But hell not at all; condemnation a couple of times; eternal life/resurrection/etc many times.
In any case, leaving out John, that makes roughly 61 references to the Kingdom; and 13 to 'hell'.
So... while hell MIGHT be spoken of by Christ more than heaven; the KINGDOM is spoken of more than anything. FAR more. While I am sure I missed some spots, especially depending upon the translation I used, I believe I missed an equal amount from each category.
and when he talks about hell he is giving warnings most of the time. he tells how bad it is,he speaks about who is going there.(luke16:19-31)(matthew 25:31-46)(matthew13:42)(mark 9:46)(rev20:15)
I don't see those verses back up your belief (which I still need defined), but of course he is giving warnings about "it", even if "it" is death.
Some quick things to think about with regard to your references:
Your reference in Luke is the parable of Lazarus. Funny how the rich man thinks that a drop of water will soothe him if he is in eternal fire. That can't be literal, but the implication is supposed to be that he is literally burning in hell? Regardless, the word translated to hell... is hades. The same meaning as Sheol. The world of the dead. Where Job longed to go? (I think I remember that this was Job) And here is an important point regarding sheol/hades: The day of judgement had not yet come, with no doubt for certain regarding the people from the OT who also went to hades/sheol... translated as hell... so all these people in Hades... were being punished/tormented for what they have not even been judged for yet? Does that sound just?
Hold that in consideration with the verse in Revelation 20:15. Because if nothing else, this should be the one that shows you that this word, 'hell', has no basis for even being IN the bible. Hades (hell) is thrown INTO the lake of fire (also hell?) Even though the account says what the lake of fire is: the second death. This passage ALSO emphasises that those in 'hades' are resurrected and THEN judged. THEN thrown into the lake of fire (if their name is not written in the lambs book of life)
Ravens, does your understanding make any sense according to this passage? Because this would be according to your understanding: Those in hell are resurrected from hell to THEN be judged... and then thrown into another hell (which I assume you believe the lake of fire to be) again? Does that make ANY sense AT ALL?
Read from 11-15 in chapter 20.
Matt 25 is the parable of the sheep and goats, and is speaking of those who enter the Kingdom by doing good to Christ (from doing good to his brothers), and those who did bad to Him by the same standards and so that cast out. Though the translation I have does use... into the fire. (keep in mind though that even satan does not get thrown INTO the fire until the end of the thousand years himself; but he is abyssed - cut off - for the thousand years)
As for the other two, fires of hell... would be fires of 'hades/sheol'... and that doesn't quite hold the same connotation as the hellfire that preachers have taught it to mean, now does it?
the bible teaches there are only two groups of ppl, the childern of god and the childern of the devil(1 john 3:9,10) thoses who are born again and those who are not.
It is also written in the bible that CHRIST teaches that there are those who do GOOD to even the least of his brothers, who are invited into the kingdom on the basis of that. (and the reverse, from the sheep and goats). Because, Ravens, there are two resurrections. Those who belong to CHrist... ALL of them... are gathered to him when he returns. First resurrection. In the second resurrection, when the sea, and death, and hades give up the dead in them... some of these are also written in the lamb's book of life. But these ones were not 'born again' .. these ones were not the brothers Christ... because they would have been gathered to him in the first resurrection if that were true.
(As well, since we are speaking of the bible and not just Christ's words now... Paul says that ALL ISRAEL is saved. He is not speaking of 'spiritual Israel'... but of his own flesh and blood brothers, Israel. (more than jews, btw, since the Jews are made from two tribes - Judah and Benjamin, but there are still ten other tribes... of which the Samaritans were part. The two tribe kingdom and the ten tribe kingdom.... do you recall that from the OT?) All Israel has not been 'born again' in the last couple thousand years.)
and there is only two etrenal places in the kingdom or outside(matthew 8:11)
Well, there is also the world of the dead and heaven. Though the kingdom comes FROM heaven, so you might consider that in one category. And it is true that technically, the world of the dead (hell/hades/sheol) is also outside the kingdom. However hell/hades/sheol is not eternal, from scripture, but is eventually thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) This second death - is eternal. But even in one of your hell quotes, Christ says, beware him who can destroy both body and soul in "hell".
Destroyed. Even if something takes some time to BE destroyed (as the adversary and spirit beings with him would; being stronger), that thing is still eventually destroyed.
notice what jesus says happens to those in the darkness outside. not annilation but weeping and suffering.
Yes, the outer darkness. But the outer darkness -those cast outside the Kingdom - is not the lake of fire. No one is thrown into the lake of fire until after the thousand years, and after armageddon, and after the resurrection of the dead. Then hades is ALSO thrown into the lake of fire.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth: Jealousy, resentment, bitterness, regret... at seeing people IN the kingdom, and yourself oustside. What do you think people might feel thinking that they belonged to Christ (lord, lord) and yet those they persecuted or looked down upon or judged or even killed, are in with Him, while they, themselves are cast out?
This is the timing Ravens:
- Tribulation.
- Those days cut short; Christ returns and gathers his own -those who are still alive and those who had died and are currently under the altar WAITING
- During these thousand years, Satan is abyssed.
- The kingdom is established, and these ones reign with him for the thousand years. The nations are gathered before him (those who are alive on the earth when he brings his kingdom) from the sheep and the goats parable; some are invited into the Kingdom as the SUBJECTS of the kingdom, and some are cast out into the darkness.
- The thousand years ends, and Satan is released and misleads the nations once again. Who are these nations? They are those outside the kingdom, those who were cast out into the outer darkness. They now ride across the earth, come against the Kingdom and those in the Kingdom, those who were doing NOTHING to them; but instead of destroying them as is their intent, fire from heaven devours them. That is the battle of God. God did not pursue them; they were permitted to live as they always have lived. Until they came against those in the Kingdom and try to destroy those who belong to God.
- THEN comes the resurrection of the dead. Some to life, and some to judgment (lake of fire which is the second death).
tec is jesus lying.
No, Christ is not lying. But your Mr Washer is teaching the lies that have been taught to him, by others who did not know and so taught lies as well.
So we can maybe have a more defined discussion on hell if you define it for me, what it is, when people go there, provide scriptural backing for your beliefs, and perhaps also explain to me that strange conundrum from revelation, and how people are somehow resurrected from hell... judged... and then thrown back into hell?
We can also move on to the second point as well.
Peace to you,
tammy
