I told my dad this morning......... (page 2)

simplesally

If you dad has worked with the HLC or done his research on blood, you can ask him, "if its ok to take a few drops of blood, then why not a whole pint? or pints? or a gallon, for that matter!"

It is considered a conscious matter to take the treatment called a "blood patch" (just ask the HLC elder) which is when they remove your blood, work on it and give it back to you. This "treatment" is given to women who suffer migraines when they are getting an epidural. I had assumed we could not do this treatment when I found out about it during Lamaze. But during the seminar I attended with our elders which was conducted by an elder and employee of a medical center, it was told to us that this was a conscious matter and considered a "medical treatment" and not considered "taking blood."

Ask your dad if taking pencillin for a cold is considered "eating penicillan"!!!

LDH

Be very careful here...Your dad may feel he has to report this to the elders and I know you are struggling with the DA issue.

Tread lightly.

Lisa

Cygnus

I think the Bible DOES teach that God/Jesus had consistently used an organized association/brotherhood as his unique own. And the Bible is quite candid regarding the mistakes, failures, and shortcomings of those who were his chosen prophets and evangelists.

The whole argument that JWs _cannot_ be God's organization because they make mistakes is hogwash. If God never needed an organization or people that associated with each other with understandings of what that association required, then why bother with the Bible at all?

AlanF

Cygnus, you're not representing the issue of "mistakes" fairly. For some reason you sound like you've truly reverted back to JWism.

No one is saying that a particular group cannot be God's exclusive organization merely because some of the people in it make mistakes -- at least, I certainly am not. What is generally being said is that, (1) there is no evidence in the Bible that God ever used or today uses one "organization" to which people must belong in order to get his approval, and (2) the particular mistakes that the JW organization makes disqualify them from being what they claim, namely, God's exclusive organization today -- and this by their very own standards.

Regarding (1) you said:

: I think the Bible DOES teach that God/Jesus had consistently used an organized association/brotherhood as his unique own.

Not so. According to JW chronology, Job was Moses' contemporary. This was at a time when the Jews were clearly "a people for His name", and according to WTS claims, must have been God's exclusive people. How then, did Job gain God's approval, not being a Jew?

For a thorough discussion of this topic, go here: http://brci.org/Publications/Publications.html and read the article "Does God Work Through An Organization?"

As for (2), that's easy. Luke 21:8 tells Christians to reject anyone who tells people that he is God's representative and proclaims "the time is at hand". Need I remind you that the Society fulfills both of these criteria in spades?

AlanF

ThiChi

""I think the Bible DOES teach that God/Jesus had consistently used an organized association/brotherhood as his unique own. And the Bible is quite candid regarding the mistakes, failures, and shortcomings of those who were his chosen prophets and evangelists."""

Man, I thought that too until I read Ray Franz second book, “In Search of Christian Freedom,” Which convinced me that the whole “concept” of this Organization/power trip was non existent in the BC time line and the first century......

herbert

Cygnus,

In another thread you were talking about the logic of certain teachings. Let's assume, for the sake of argument only, that God does work through a single organization to which one must belong to achieve salvation. Is it logical that this organization would be a minor offshoot of Protestantism? After all, that excludes the vast majority of the world's population from the get go - why should someone born Chinese or Indian have an unfair disadvantage, based solely on where they were born, when it comes to joining that organization? It's hard enough for them to convert to Christianity let alone to a minor sect with a disturbing background and a track record of predicting the end repeatedly with devasting results for many of their followers.

As for mistakes, what makes the WTS's mistakes forgivable and those of other religions worthy of their clergy and their members being slaughtered - dead for eternity? Just read some of Rutherford's books from the 20s and 30s to see what will happen to the clergy and those who associate with them.

And finally, Cygnus, what do you think about the logic behind the WTS affiliating with the UN - is that a "forgivable mistake" when countless JWs have been jailed, killed or dfed over various aspects of "neutrality."

Herbert

lv4fer

Thank you all for your comments.

Cygnus-We are not saved by belonging to an org., we are saved by putting faith in Jesus Christ, it is due to God's grace that we are saved in this manner. It doesn't say anywhere that we have to attend 5 meetings a week, go door to door. We are saved by the Grace of God if we put faith in his son. That's it.

The WT cannot be Jehovah's org because they are a false prophet. A false prophet is one who gives wrong or false prophesy. WT is guilty of this. If you can show me anywhere in the bible someplace where one of God's prophets gave a message to God's people and it was an incorrect message because they misunderstood or misinterpreted it and then later were given "New Light" and the message was then changed. I may reconsider my thoughts.

"The reward for conformity was that everyone liked you except yourself."

Rita Mae Brown

larc

Cygnus,

Who was God's organization from 200 AD up until 1879?

bluesapphire

Rita, I know your heart is where it belongs. But I want to share something that I think may save you a heartache in the future:

That exact conversation was had by me and my sister three years ago. She now shuns me even though I'm not df or da.

I wish I could go back in time and undo it. I would have gone much more slowly. I would have said that I was tired of the meetings and wanted to read the bible more.

I would have planted seeds without her knowing I was doing it. Instead I just did what you did -- I blurted out that it's not the truth.

Right away she shut down. After that there was no reasoning with her or even getting her to listen to a tiny little doubt of mine.

My advice to you now is GO SLOW. VERY VERY SLOW.

You dont' have to divulge everything in one sitting. Just express some doubts but in an innocent way.

Talk about the Mormons and not the JWs. Talk about the Catholic inquisitions and not the JWs. Let him come to his own conclusions.

I hope it all goes down right for you. I just wish I could relive those lost moments.

bluesapphire

Maybe God has used an "organization" to dispense truth and accomplish his will. But maybe God in his infinite wisdom and mercy doesn't require that all people be IN this organization for salvation since he knows that a person who was born in China or Iran has less of a chance. Maybe He knows that He would have to read people's hearts (for real) in those situations. Maybe people could benefit from the organization without being in it like Job.

ie., protestants benefit from the bible because the Catholic Church compiled the canon and preserved it. Also, many of the protestant dogmas (Trinity, Imortality) were taken from the Catholic Church. From the Catholic Church's standpoint, all Bible believing Christians have the Church to thank that all the books weren't lost forever back in the time of the persecutions of Christians before Constantine. Also, who copied the books and preserved them throughout the ages when most people were illiterate? Who kept it alive through its liturgy?

Obviously, if the Bible is worth anything, God DID use an organization to accomplish this.

I told my dad this morning.........

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