The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday (page 109)

cofty

Please stop making this about the attention-seeker.

Viviane

I submit this:

1) It is possible that something is going on that we are not fully capable of grasping.

2) If something is going on that we are not fully capable of grasping then it would be wrong to reach firm conclusions based upon only things we are capable of grasping.

However, you are attempting to reach a firm conclusion based upon only that which we fully understand. For us to reach a right conclusion we MUST therefore presuppose that we understand everything.

I believe that this is a flawed presupposition.

But... if there is something we don't know and we also don't know that we can't know it, how could someone ever be expected to wait to make decisions based on that lack of knowledge about a lacking understanding what we lack knowledge of to make a decision? How could we ever hope to know what we don't know we don't know and, even if we did, couldn't understand?

That seems like a "god of the gaps" argument to me.

I am learning a lot about constructing a logically valid argument from this thread. And the meaning of the word "obfuscation".

KateWild

the further back you have had to assign god a role.-snare

Krauss is more likeable that Dawkins to me. He was very easy to listen to and promoted his book very well indeed. I want to buy it, but I am not sure how heavy going it will be. The youtube was pretty easy listening.

He mentioned the fact there was no purpose to the earth, but that was contraversial and he knew it, he was not stating it as a fact. This did not make me feel I have to assign God a role less than creator. Many create today with the purpose to teach and entertain, so it's not difficult to give God this role still.

But I am thinking of buying the book. Snare, cofty, bohm, cantleave, have you read any of Krauss' books? Was he a heavy read ? Could a lay person grasp it?

Kate xx

snare&racket

Yeah, it is a good book.

I only have amateur interest in physics and I had no problem with it.

doofdaddy

Well there has been another tsunami, a tsunami of off topic preaching and attempts at point scoring.

Now that reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

cofty

Unless you can demonstrate that you have all the information then you are likely to reach a flawed conclusion. - Flamegrilled

But I am not proposing a conclusion. This thread is not about disproving god, I am simply pointing out a dilemma for theists.

Its true that I don't believe in god or in any supernatural realm but that conclusion is based on far more than the problem of "natural evil".

Thesits cannot take refuge in mystery without being deeply dishonest. Deists and agnostics can get away with it; they only ever make very modest statements about their knowlede of a deity.

Theists are extravagant with their knowledge claims. They claim to know all sorts of things about god's nature, qualities and preferences.

So when somebody points out a fact about reality that seems to contradict some of thse claims they cannot suddenly cry "inscrutability".

Christian theists assert without evidence that god created the planet and everything on it, including its various geological systems.

They claim that their god is powerful, loving and knowing. They pray to their god with an expectation that he hears them and grants requests. Among the things that christians are authorised by scripture to pray for is the health and well being of other christians.

The events of 26th December 2004 seem to be inconsistent with one or more of these beliefs.

The god of christian theism knew about the earthquake as it happened. He observed the pressure wave rise to the surface of the Indian Ocean and begin to radiate out. He knew for a certainty that if he did nothing, around a quarter of a million people would drown within hours and a further 5 million would be left with no homes and no access to food or water.

He chose not to stop the tsunami.

These are the facts.

In this thread theists have offerd a variety of possible solutions. Some have minimised the enormity of the event, others have unwittingly called into question the power or omniscience of god.

The one option that is not open to a theist is feigned ignorance, not with all those things you already claim to know. That would be like a rich man pleading poverty when its his turn to get the drinks in.

strypes

Is this the same Strypes from tec's voice hearers forum? I'm thinking it is.

I don't know.

What forum is that?

Tec.. Do I know you?

tec

She means xjwsforchrist. (Though it is weird that someone who is not a member would know that, much less bring it up as though it is pertinent to this conversation.)

There are a number of derisive names bandied about for that forum, from a few people on this forum.

I am simply pointing out a dilemma for theists.

It does not seem to be a dilemma for most of the theists who have posted on this thread.

It seems to be much more of a dilemma for you and some other atheists/anti-theists.

And saying that a person who knows some things... cannot also NOT know some things... is ridiculous. It is like saying a physicist who knows so much about the world according to the laws of physics... cannot claim that there are variables he does NOT yet know.

Peace,

tammy

strypes

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

Sooo..

From the OP, this thread is really about the 2004 Boxing Day tsaumi and the age old question of why does Almighty God, creator of the universe, allow "good" people to suffer and not interveine on their behalf.

Suffering 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iZGVUa0BFo

Everybody seems to have an opinion regarding this age old question of suffering. Jesus knows all about suffering. His suffering brings healing to those who follow him, Peace in the storms of life and mercy at judgement. (Tiz True).

My opinion is that God has interviened. His provision of redemption through Jesus' suffering paved the way for Believers to be born of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit holds His own close as the storms of life rage around us. Come hell or high water, we are not alone. We are not immune to the challenges that face mankind. We trust that God knows what He is doing and His plan will come to fruition.

So what did the writer of Job record as God's purpose regarding suffering?

Job 36:15

"God teaches men through suffering and uses distress to open their eyes."

strypes

***off topic***

Tec,

What is really weird is I have not been to that site in forever. When I did visit that site, I rarely posted and that was so very long ago I barely remember it.

So it is quite weird that a mention of it is posted here and it is definately not pertinent to this conversation. I concur.

*** back to the topic***

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

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