by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences
If God is waiting to intervene in human affairs until every person is "called by Christ" (or whatever)....where does it end? More and more humans are born every day. It would seem that waiting would just be an endless cycle, as soon as everyone has "heard Christ" there would be millions more with the same potential.
This is why tec's explanation doesn't make sense to me. One of the reasons, anyways.
But Kate, you must admit, the more you learn, the further back you have had to assign god a role.... keep reading, guess what happens?! :)
Try this when you have the time....
Here is a first draft of an updated summary of responses so far. I have grouped them together into similar categories.
Please feel free to suggest improvements and additions. I am certain it needs a lot of work but its a start.
Thank you to everbody who has contributed so far.
The "rational responses" do not cover all of the excellent range of contributions so my apologies in advance.
1. Answers that seek to change the question.
For example...
Blaming humans for damaging the earth
References to "the fall"
Slippery-slope arguments such as, "if god prevents a tsunami where does he stop?"
Any answer that appeals to free-will.
Rational Response
The question of this thread is very specific. It only concerns "natural evil". In theology this term relates to suffering that is not caused by human actions. Earthquakes and tsunamis have been happening for millions of years before humans appeared. They are a result of plate tectonics. They are not caused by anything humans have done.
If god chose to do so he could refuse to stop suffering caused by human actions while preventing the negative consequences of how he chose to make the world. Either directly or indirectly, the tsunami was entirely an act of god.
If god had calmed the wave before it had even reached the surface no human would ever have known about it and no free will would have been effected in any way.
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2. Answers that call into question god's ability to prevent the tsunami
For example...
There may have been unforeseen consequences of stopping the disaster
God is not all-powerful
Rational Response
The god of theism is the omnipotent creator. It would have been trivially easy for him to calm the wave and prevent any other negative consequences.
The question is not a problem for worshippers of a lesser god.
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3. Answers that seek to shift the blame
For example...
People should not have lived so near the sea
People should have known how to read the signs
Humans do bad things too
Satan did it
Rational Response...
This is morally equivalent to throwing rocks at a crowd of people and blaming them for not ducking. It portrays god as vindictive and unloving.
The people who drowned were not living on top of a fault-line or beside a live volcano. The tsunami impacted on thousands of miles of coastline around the Pacific Rim. Most of the victims had no opportunity to take evasive action.
Measuring the morality of god against that of human tyrants is setting the bar low for the god of christian theism.
The concept of god's nemesis doesn't even appear in the bible until post-exile when the Jews came into contact with the dualistic Zoroastrian religion. It is a strange pagan notion that makes god look pathetically weak.
Theism does not teach that god handed over his entire creation to a diabolical enemy with no restrictions. The devil can do nothing without the knowledge and permission of god. If Satan caused the tsunami he did so with the full knowledge and permission of god.
This answer is the moral equivalent of letting a wild lion loose in a village and then blaming the animal for the deaths.
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4. Answers that seek to find some benefit in the disaster
For example...
Suffering makes us stronger
Suffering teaches us compassion
It afforded the opportunity for people to offer help
Rational Response...
These are Ivory Tower responses that takes no account of the reality of human suffering. A quarter of a million people learned nothing from being drowned. Their hopes and dreams perished in a moment. Hundreds of thousands of survivors were left bereaved and without homes, jobs or the necessities of life.
Human efforts to clear up god's mess does not excuse his passivity. It is also astonishing hubris that diminishes the lives of a quarter of million people into a commodity to be used for the benefit of producing better christians.
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5. Answers that try to reject the question
For example...
Who are we to judge god?
God can do whatever he chooses
We just need to trust that whatever god does is for the best.
Rational Response...
This answer requires that we unhitch the word "love" from any meaningful definition. We may think we know what love means but god demonstrates that we have not the slightest idea. Love could just as easily mean the capricious annihilation of a quarter of a million innocent people. It destroys our ability to make moral judgements. "Good" is whatever pleases god from moment to moment. Mass destruction is just as morally good as altruism and self-sacrifice.
If god is love, everything he does must be motivated by love, even when he judges. Love is not a hat he can take off for a while and replace with one labelled "vengeance".
Ethics become a matter of divine fiat and the value of human life is trivialised. This defence reduces god to a celestial Pol Pot who may choose on a whim to eradicate our lives in the manner of the killing fields of Cambodia.
If neglecting to stop a wave that drowns a quarter of a million people doesn't give us pause to reconsider the wisdom of blindly trusting of god what would??
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6. Answers that Retreat into temporary Deism
For example...
This is not god's time to intervene
God has promised to end suffering at a future time
Rational Response
According to christian theism, god is intimately involved in human affairs. Not just in giving strength to cope with whatever happens in life, but in actually changing events for the benefit of those who ask in faith.
"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." - John 15:7
"Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you , even as your soul is getting along well." - 3 John :2
If all christians comply with Jesus' words to petition god for things, and imitate John by praying that god bless and prosper others, then god is active every second of every day responding to millions of requests.
If god answers even one of those prayers it destroys the argument that god was not in the intervention business on 26th December 2004
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7. Answers that trivialise the reality of human suffering
For example..
Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards
Rational Response
This is ethically repugnant. Suffering is not reducible to arithmetic. This life really matters. Any philosophy that minimises the importance of physical human life is dangerous. It is the same mentality that leads to religious extremism and flies aeorplanes into tall buildings.
It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defence, so beloved of tyrants.
Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.
Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who gave all of them one of the magic pills when it was over?
But Kate, you must admit-snare
Yes I admit its all about the blue pill. I like blu pills they taste good. I am going to sleep now I will watch you're red pill video instead of praying. I will comment on it tomorrow. Goodnight Kate xx
Wait, I think I can put it all together.
God doesn't kill people. Death kills people.
God isn't responsible for anything in this world because it's Satan's world.
If Satan didn't do it, and Death didn't do it, then Men are responsible themselves for not "hearing" God or nature in some way- similar to the JW message that people will be self-accountable because they didn't listen to whackos at their door on Saturday morning with "the truth."
Even good men who don't "hear" are at fault.
God can occasionally intervene and destroy everyone in a worldwide flood but everyone was wicked or it was their parents' fault for being wicked if they were just babies,
or He can confuse all the languages and scatter mankind
or He can destroy two cities entirely (save Lot and 2 daughters) but it's not His fault just like the flood
or He can intervene to make sure someone's dog is fed or maybe to tell them (and only them) what to say on some obscure internet forum.
BUT
when He doesn't intervene, it always falls back to "Death kills people" or "It's Satan's world" or "Men are responsible."
Most of us have been there, done that, got a lapel badge and a green or black Bible to show for it.
I can see these excuses being used elsewhere. Stop blaming George Bush for doing not enough after Hurricane Katrina. Those "poor folk" should have known better than to live in a New Orleans flood zone where the levy wasn't built strong enough for category 5 storms. Don't blame the killer when you live in a dangerous neighborhood. Don't help someone in distress when they did something that might be the cause of their death. If you see a child in the street about to be hit by a car, just hope their parent shows up or that Death is on a holiday.
God is only responsible when the outcome is wonderful.
Is that the trees within the forest?
flamegrilled,
It doesn't work for me to imagine that picture of a bright pet having a painful procedure done.
See youtube: Louis CK Punches Dog in the Face to Save Her Life-Conan O'Brien
The individual dog has a chance to forgive after a while--but your application is not toward an individual human with a procedure from which they recover..
..I don't think it fits.
You blame people for not hearing gods warnings tec, and even mention that they might mistake gods voice for their own thoughts. Why not blame god for not being clear enough, if his voice is so quiet that it could be confused with someones own thoughts then maybe he's not trying hard enough. Or maybe his voice IS THEIR OWN THOUGHTS!
If he is intervening to warn people, meaning that he obviously doen't want them to die, then why not intervene to just stop the disaster?
just refer to a main point and reply to it without all the waffle.... Cofty
One more question on this.
How am I supposed to know what the main point is? If you have a main point to make with me, then why don't you make it without the waffle?
Then I don't have to respond to anything other than the main point.
Tammy, my questions were simple and you didn't all address them. You talked about them, but not much more. It's clear now that you will NOT directly answer, so there is no point in even trying a conversation with you... Viviane
I quite honestly don't know what you do not understand, and that is why I asked you to address my response point for point (and you may want to check out your response to me on page 23 of this thread, because you did just that, though you now say that you will not).
So lets go through your questions again then, and I will try to be more direct and add the supporting evidence that you asked for. But if you are looking for a rule book on prayer you are not going to get one from me. Depends a great deal upon you, and your prayers are between you and God. I am not the one who knows what is in your heart, and your prayers are your business. Not mine.
You asked:
Should we NOT pray for others?
No.
(no to your NOT praying for others... meaning, yes, we should... if you are so moved to do so)
Christ prayed for others. (I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail... Luke 22:32)
Just for God's will to happen?
Again, they are your prayers. But once one loves God AND knows Him AND serves Him, I cannot imagine, personally, why that one would pray for something that is against His will... and also think that they were right to do this. Perhaps in a moment of weakness, but how could they not later acknowledge their wrong?
Christ did not pray for anything that would be against His Fathers will. I gave an example previously from his own prayer the night he was arrested. "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' " Matt 26:39
Should we pray and just HOPE that it's God's will?
You could. You could also mimic what Christ did, in the example above. Just saying the words, "not my will, but yours".
You said we shouldn't pray for ourselves, but Cornelius did just that.
I did not say we should not pray for ourselves.
"Give US our daily bread; forgive US our trespasses"... that sounds like praying for ourselves to me, as well as for others.
I said that Christ said our Father knows what we need before we ask him. Though it is true that he was referring to babbling on like pagans who think that they would get what they asked for because of their many words. Then he gave us an example OF prayer directly afterward. (the our father prayer)
But our purpose here - if we are serving Christ and God - is not to get 'things' for ourselves. Houses, promotions, cars, money, fame, etc, etc. This does not mean we will not get them if we ask for them, and I have asked for things for myself; when I was younger yes because I was a teenager and self-absorbed; and again years ago I asked something for myself... though not if it would have been against His will; and even then it did not feel right asking for something for myself. But Christ did say, "Whatever you ask for in my name, know that it is yours, and you will receive it."
I just cannot imagine anyone being able to ask in His name... and then asking for something that is against the will of His Father.
But again... it is not up to me what you pray for or do not pray for. That is between you and God. Your business, and if your conscience is clear, then what do I have to say about it? I have no right to judge it. You must look at His words and think/ask for yourself.
Now may I ask you again, because you bring Cornelius in as an example on praying for ourselves: What prayer did Cornelius pray for himself? I do not know what prayer you are referring to.
Peace to you,
tammy
Tec said:
Other than what you should have already known: that this world would have suffering and death; that this world is not ruled by God. As Christ said, his Kingdom is from another place. Our promise is for eternal life in that Kingdom of God. That is what we work for; that is what Christ worked for; that is the Kingdom God prepared.
Cofty focused upon the bolded part and asked about that.
I am not sure why you ask abou that now... I repeated earlier, from Christ, that this world is not the Kingdom of God.
In any case, yes I was referring to the Adversary. Not that I think he sent the tsunami, or that he is responsible for all the evils done in this world, or anything like that. He accuses those who belong to Christ and God, wanting them to give up their faith in Christ and God... but the world turnes with or without people in the vicinity, and natural disasters happen with or without those who belong to Christ and God present. The adversary also has no power over what man does... except what we give him, I guess by listening to him, by bowing to him instead of God. As he also offered Christ all the kingdoms of the world, here and now, if only Christ would bow to him and so 'curse god and die'.
In any case, I hope that you aren't going to move the point from other than what I made and have been making from the start. This world is not the Kingdom of God. If it were... then it would be ruled by the one He appointed. But Christ said that his kingdom was NOT from this world, but from another place.
Peace,
tammy
If God is waiting to intervene in human affairs until every person is "called by Christ" (or whatever)....where does it end?
He is waiting to send His Son to gather those who belong to him and then establish His Kingdom... according to His timeline... but at least until the last person who belongs to him can come to him; including someone who might not yet be born. So it ends... when the last of these has at least been born, so as to be able to come to Christ.
More and more humans are born every day. It would seem that waiting would just be an endless cycle, as soon as everyone has "heard Christ" there would be millions more with the same potential.
More and more humans are born yes... and the time given allows more and more to repent and come to Christ. But there are some God knows who already belong to Him (from his pov) or who WILL belong to Him (from our pov)... who have not yet come to Christ (not yet been born even), but who WILL do so. Until that happens the door is OPEN, and anyone may repent and come to Christ. Take the water of life FREE!
God already knows these ones, also. He has already seen them. God already knows that the Kingdom is established for that matter. But the offer and the call and the invitation is to anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts... for as long as the door (Christ) is open.
This is a mercy for anyone who has yet to come.
This is why tec's explanation doesn't make sense to me. One of the reasons, anyways.
Hope the above helps some.
Peace to you,
tammy
