The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday (page 190)

cofty

Summary of Flamegrilled's conversation so far...

Atheist - The enormity of natural evil argues powerfully against christian theism.

Flamegrilled - Natural evil does not make my loving god logically impossible.

Atheist - In what way?

Flamegrilled - There may be facts you are not aware of.

Atheist - What facts could reconcile a tsunami with a loving, knowing, omnipotent god?

Flamegrilled - That is a mystery, I am just saying it's not logically impossible.

Atheist - It is very compelling evidence against theism. What evidence to the contrary could possibly be so strong?

Flamegrilled - I refuse to talk about it and I don't like your tone

cofty

Our posts above overlapped. I am looking at your last post now.

caliber

It's a mystery

Go with that thought then... why do people love Mystery books ?

Mysteries get the brain working and the intellect going. Some mysteries can be very complicated.

Why not just tell everyone in chapter one .. wouldn't that save a lot of time and fuss ?

Mysteries are different than other novels because although all novels may use foreshadowing, mysteries use clues.

Foreshadowing may be a part of the clues. There are also usually twists and turns that are expected and unexpected.

Maybe God's mystery is to involve us also... to get us to thinking

however in the Christian view is much more than that is at stake here of course

besty

good to see the energy still here on thread...

Viviane

Remember, we are NOT talking about probability here. We are ONLY talking about what we know for a certainty.

Technically, we know nothing for a certainty, so your argument is just as valid to say that Pol Pot could actually have been a great guy with good reasons.

Are you making that argument? If not, I wonder how you would avoid it since there could be things we don't know that make his actions seem reasonable according to you.

I will not attribute natural disasters to any human failure or evil, nor cling to the hope of a divine rebalance of injustice in some indeterminate future or space-dimension, but to the inexistence of an alleged omnipotent god.

cofty

Do you KNOW beyond any possibility of error where they (as conscious beings) are now, and/or where they may be in the future? - Flamegrilled

I would love to believe that physical death is not the end of personal existence. However there is no evidence to support belief in continued existence after death, nor in the idea of a resurrection. I am 99.9...% convinced this is nothing but wishful thinking and superstition. However if any evidence to the contrary exists then I have an open mind to examine it.

As far as using life after death as an excuse for the tsunami, Besty has already answered that.

Even if it was true that every single victim of the tsunami was going to get an eternity in paradise this in no way excuses god's inaction.

Inflicting violent death and bereavement is not a loving act - ever. Your god is love. He taught us to "do unto others ...."

He cannot do unloving things. He drowned a quarter of a million and bereaved many more. This is not how we love others.

A loving, omnipotent god cannot do great evil in order to achieve his goals. All his actions must be love.

Doing evil and violent acts in this life, based on belief in another more important life to come, is what leads to inquisitions and flies aeroplanes into buildings.

Ethically bad things are ethically bad, even if we intend to reward the victims later.

cofty

your argument is just as valid to say that Pol Pot could actually have been a great guy with good reasons I will not attribute natural disasters to any human failure or evil, nor cling to the hope of a divine rebalance of injustice in some indeterminate future or space-dimension, but to the inexistence of an alleged omnipotent god. - jgnat

Following the tsunami I explored open thesim and process theology in an effort to square the circle.

I discussed it with my pastor. A few weeks later we had a visiting big-shot preacher form Ireland. He made Ian Paisley sound timid. The pastor had obviously been talking to him about my thinking as the Irishman used his sermon to lambast my thoughts from the pulpit. No reasoning, just a lot or loud assertions.

The pastor later started an internet relationship with a woman hundreds of miles away and walked out on his wife and children. I just heard last week he is back in the full-time ministry.

cofty

Maybe God's mystery is to involve us also... to get us to thinking - Caliber

Shall we try that excuse on a real tsunami victim?

"God drowned your family because god loves a mystery, and it gets comfortable western protestants thinking."

flamegrilled

I would love to believe that physical death is not the end of personal existence. However there is no evidence to support belief if continued existence after death nor in the idea of a resurrection. I am 99.9...% convinced this is nothing but wishful thinking and superstition. However if any evidence to the contrary exists then I have an open mind to examine it. Cofty

Fair enough. So we are down to probabilities not certainties. I am 96.7% convinced that abiogenesis of carbon based life is not possible.

There are a bunch of other probabilities that i could bring into the discussion but again this is not about that. You have no more certainty than I do. I completely respect your right to form strong opinions based upon your assessment of those, but your OP depends on certainty. It's not there.

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

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