The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday (page 208)

humbled

If the thread has helped me, it has been in this way:

It forced me to critically examine thoughts that had long been submerged in my mind:

What will happen if I question the Bible God?

Will I have to then deny the benefits I have received from the teachings of Jesus?

Does it mean that I must deny any thing/principle/force that may exist if I do not believe the God of Christian Theism exists?

The answers are mine to deal with. There is mystery. I do not believe the God I was told of exists.

What is the loss? What can I do about it?

The loss of the Bible god and the retaining of Jesus loses me nothing. I and everyone else will die some day. The only change is I do not have to tell others they are subject to doom if they are not saved. But then I do not have to tell others they have a heaven to receive them and wipe their tears away. However, no one is the loser if I am wrong, for then they will have a pleasant surprise.

The benefit of having only love and justice as the best of Jesus' teachings, is the need to implement these in more practical ways. And really that is and was the most important thing anyway.

This thread will continue to reverberate for me. I almost would say it has been life changing. Not because I had not ever thought of these things. I just would not let myself openly deal with them. There has been healing from a corrupt religion and exploration of what remains to guide my steps going forward.

A Post script:

As for how cofty has moderated his thread--Though he is some years my junior he has reminded me of my father. My father came up through the ranks starting in WWII as a private, a sargeant in the Korean conflict and then went to officer candidate school. He became disillusioned with army politics and the callous abuse of young men in the ranks during Vietnam. I heard a soldier say of him."Capt. Dolan is tough but he's fair."

Cofty's trajectory through the JWs and Church (seems to have) put him through some of the same. He comes off as a bit crusty. But in my estimation also: cofty is tough but fair.

And I say it even though I have winced at his rough handling of fellow posters. I was one of my father's 9 children and we were a wild lot at times. He didn't often flatter our feelings with long explanations when he had to deal with us. We had to think about it. But he wasn't above conceding an honest point when it came up.

And it's been a hard thing to press our thoughts --not our feelings or what we were taught--- from the question the thread opened with. It's natural to take up a defensive stance after a hard hit. But the topic is a hard one. Smack smack smack! a lot of loosely held beliefs shattered (for me) that had cracks in them anyway.

No matter where our journey of faith ends, after participating in this discussion, we'll know that we walked through some fire to get there. And that's never bad.

Maeve

cofty

Thank you for your kind and honest words Maeve.

When we all - and I include myself - stop pretending to know things we can't know, and have the courage to separate our knowledge from our desires, we find there is very little difference between any of us. We all have the same needs for love and for a life full of meaning and purpose.

caliber

When we all - and I include myself - stop pretending to know things we can't know, and have the courage to separate our knowledge from our desires, we find there is very little difference between any of us. We all have the same needs for love and for a life full of meaning and purpose.

~~cofty

How Is the christian view "pretending to know things " ?

1. What do you mean by that?

2. What reasons do you have to think that ?

He has made everything appropriate in its time . He has also put eternity in their hearts , but man cannot discover the work God has done from beginning to end.( we have limits in understanding )~~ Ecclesiastes 3:11

It's not a knowing but rather faith and trust that is "born in our hearts" from God who does know

The 'desire" for life and love is already built within our hearts..." there is no difference in us" ... so true

jgnat

So the offhand "stupid" remark was said in the heat of the moment, I take it.

cofty

How Is the christian view "pretending to know things " ? - Caliber

Every single doctrine of theism is an example of pretending to know things that you do not know. Take your pick.

Faith is the magic word that turns making evidence-free assertions into a virtue.

Science progresses gradually and tentatively, carefully weighing up the significance of new discoveries. Theism loudly asserts a whole list of absolute truth claims based on nothing but dogma.

As soon as somebody asks a difficult question or points out a contradiction in your beliefs you suddenly become all modest and agnostic.

Apognophos

To add to cofty's answer, if a Christian says he knows that God has a good reason for allowing suffering, this could be considered "pretending to know things" even if you don't claim to know the actual reason God has. It's a claim that God is good and loving, without the evidence for it, and in spite of evidence to the contrary. The scientific approach would be to examine God's work and determine God's nature from it instead of coming to the conclusion first and trying to hold to it no matter what.

caliber

jgnat.. I hope others at least caught the wink after the word summary

I am truly sorry for the confusion and I truly wasn't sure you were talking to me

caliber

o add to cofty's answer, if a Christian says he knows that God has a good reason for allowing suffering, this could be considered "pretending to know things" even if you don't claim to know the actual reason God has.~~~Apognophos

Cofty kept pressing for Christians to give a reason for God's non-action..

on three occasions I quote this Bible verse... which he called a non-answer

Should I have come up with an answer of my own to pacify him or tell him what I beleive is the truth ?

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.
'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

cofty

Ignoring the question and quoting ancient Hebrew poetry is not even an attempt at an answer.

You affirm that Yahweh's ways are higher than our ways. We would not have passively observed a tsunami drown a quarter of a million innocent people if we had the power to prevent it. We would have calmed the wave before it even broke the surface and nobody would ever have known about our act of love. We would have done this because we understand the meaning of love and compassion and empathy.

Therefore we can say for a certainty that Isaiah was wrong. God's ways are not only lower than our ways, they are beneath our contempt.

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

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