The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday (page 35)

cofty

Isn't it interesting that Pelican's response to this...

was....

I really, really hate what faith-based thinking does to good people.

How obnoxious faith-based thinking is.

PelicanBeach

Cofty,

An out of context remark. Are you sure you've left the JWs?

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

"He took credit... or people gave him credit? There is a difference."

So that whole "flood of Noah's day" and "raining fire and sulfur", is that a case where he took credit or people gave him credit?

In 2 Sam 21:1-14, a three year famine in the kingdom is caused by Jehovah and ended by Jehovah only after 7 descendants of Saul, none of whom were personally responsible for the deaths of Gibeonites, were slaughtered and laid out to be eaten by birds and beasts. Is that a case where god took credit or people gave him credit? It's all explained there in his supposedly inspired book. Or is the bible no longer inspired and just something written by confused men? How can you say there is a difference between what god takes credit for or what people give him credit for in the bible? There is no difference if you claim to have any faith in the bible.

Don't bother answering. I already find it extemely disturbing that someone ignores the murders of innocent people throughout the OT and twist it around to blame the victims. This thread has further convinced me that no salvation is to be found in the bible. I used to try to focus on what it said about love, mercy, good works, and forgiveness. But the god of the bible sets a terrible example. I wouldn't want him near my children.

tec

How did evil get here then? Like a virus itself perhaps... from our choices. Anything that does not come FROM love can and does cause harm to someone or something, even if we do not see that ourselves... tec

There's no reasonable explanation for the poor choice this baby could've possibly have made, except the poor choice to be born into a World where believers like TEC would blame them for a condition that was completely beyond their ability to control.... adamah

Don't be ridiculous Adamah. I wasn't talking about 'natural evil', as the term is used here. But rather evil that we bring into the world... resulting from hate, greed, etc. Harm that we cause to others because of it. Some sickness IS a result of that mind you... like cancer, from people who covered up causes of cancer, or put power lines in places that cause cancer, or use cancer-causing ingredients in fertilization or preservation, or sent bombs and used chemical warfare that has had lasting consequences for even the survivors. (not necessarily cancer, but other things as well) But it is not the baby's fault that others brought that into the world.

I never even implied the evil thing that you said.

Peace,

tammy

bohm

PelicanBeach:

But as I said, I was handing you a good answer one that you could find fault with. A Christian answer. It is what it is.

well clearly it is what it is and I am not going to force you to defend something you are not comfortable to explain.

The key thing is I dont think you should be satisfied with any odd "christian answer" which does not stand up to scrutiny (mind, I have for the most part only asked you to clarify your answer and apply it to a specific situation).

Any religion (lets call it religion X) could claim to give a "religion X answer" to any given problem and then say: "Sure you can find fault with it, but it is what it is", but I dont think any of us recognize that as a very open-minded approach to reality or truth.

cofty

The harm caused by man is from man; death and sin (and so sickeness, etc) came from the fall. - Tammy

No. If you want to disccuss suffering in general start your own thread.

This thread is only about natural evil - bad stuff that happens that has nothing to do with humans.

Plate tectonics were not a result of the fall. Plate tectonics do not require that plate boundaries get stuck and cause earthquakes.

But even that is a distraction.

I am not saying that there should be no suffering

I am not saying that suffering proves there is no god

I am not saying that natural disasters prove there is no god

I am simply pinting out that on Boxing Day morning 2004 god passively observed a wave that killed 250 000 innocent people.

15 possible answers have been suggested by theists so far - all of them failed miserably.

Now there is an attempt by some to hijack the thread and talk about question I never asked.

Your intellectual dishonesty is duly noted.

PelicanBeach

Bohm,

I'm comfortable with my Christian answers and beliefs. When I wrote, "it is what it is" I meant that though others may disagree or not understand there is little I can do about that: it is what it is- meaning that's my belief and my stand.

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

"An out of context remark. Are you sure you've left the JWs? "

Seriously PB, you need to do some serious self-examination. You look upon the suffering of others with indifference and even contempt. And you can't respond to cofty's reasoning so you resort to insults. Sad.

cofty

I wasn't talking about 'natural evil', as the term is used here. But rather evil that we bring into the world... - Tammy

Yes. Please get back to the topic.

adamah

TEC said- Don't be ridiculous Adamah. I wasn't talking about 'natural evil', as the term is used here. But rather evil that we bring into the world...

TEC, if you had bothered to look up the basic definition of the term 'natural evil' (which is commonly used in theological discussions of theodicy for what, almost a millenia, now?) before adding your opinion, you'd see that deadly viruses ARE considered as falling under the umbrella of 'natural evil', along with earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc.

There's nothing quite like an atheist needing to explain to theists some of the basic premises of what their own belief system actually contains....

Adam

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

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