bttt!
"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?
by EdenOne 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Not that I believe any of this, but.....
"Jesus Christ identified a first requirement when he said in prayer to his Father: 'This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you... Many have found the second requirement more difficult. It is to obey God's laws, yes, to conform one's life to the moral requirements set out in the Bible...A third requirement is that we be associated with God's channel, his organization...To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it...The fourth requirement is connected with loyalty. God requires that prospective subjects of his kingdom support his government by loyally advocating his kingdom rule to others..." (four requirements for salvation as taught by the Watchtower magazine of Feb. 15, 1983, p. 12. One of them deals with the Watchtower organization.)
Question: where in John 17:3 are the second, third and fourth requirements outlined? It states one requirement: (John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. Where does it talk about attaching yourself to a "channel" of communication (organization)?
w81 12/1 p. 27 par. 4 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter
4 No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.—Compare Acts 8:30-40.
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Ding
Have them identify the "governing body" of the organization at each stage of history from Adam until Russell.
Who was the earthly head of "Jehovah's organization" when the kings and priests of Israel and Judah were engaging in idolatry and rebellion?
Why didn't Russell join any existing organization but instead started up one of his own?
Does this mean Russell founded an organization in opposition to the existing one?
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Simon
Why was his organisation never Chinese or Asian where more people are?
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Oubliette
No.
What was Jehovah's "organization" from the 2nd Century until 1918? According to current JW theology the answer is: None!
Duh, what a stupid religion. Why don't they just admit they don't have an "answer" to everything? Oh, sorry I almost forgot. Then they'd have to admit that they aren't "it."
It's a publishing company/real estate scam masquerading as a religion.
Let's be frank, shall we? If the WTBTS resembles any "organized group" from the bible, it's the Pharisees.
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pixel
Excellent point, ADCMS.
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THE GLADIATOR
Simon - Why was his organisation never Chinese or Asian where more people are?
The Watchtower Society once pointed out that the top-dog, Jehovah, in his wisdom, chose to establish his organization in an English speaking country, in New York, by the river Hudson because of the shipping and business advantages .
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adamah
EdenOne, you're arguing against the entire reason the Bible was written: to create and institute a belief system which allowed some men to control other men. He who controls the interpretation of the rules controls God, and those who don't want to play along don't get to play.
The Divine authorization to establish control is first found in Genesis 9, where God appoints Noah to institute a system of government in order to enforce the new "no bloodshed" law. THAT'S an Earthly organization, headed by Jehovah. The trend continues in the Tanakh, where there was no separate existence of religion and government, like we have today: in ancient times, you believed in the National deity or you were killed as a traitor of your Nation and killed.
The trend continues with the Kings/Priests of Israel, where eventually something somewhat analogous to a separation of church and State occurred, likely due to the concept of the Kings needing to engage in military warfare (in fact, that's the reason given in the Bible why David was not allowed to construct the Temple: his hands were sullied by conducting military campaigns, and the job remained for his son, Solomon, to accomplish). The power struggle continued amongst priests and kings for control, and such struggles are documented in the OT. The long-term resolution was that the roles were to be combined in the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, a single individual (who was a mortal) who was prophecized to serve the role of the high priest AND an Earthly King who engaged in warfare to make Israel arise again and fulfill prophecies.
Xianity was no different in using an Earthly organization, and someone mentioned Cephas, etc. That passage is referring to famous gnostic leaders (who were called false teachers), and you'll notice the NT takes great pains to polemicize such false teachers: in fact, all the references to apostates in the NT are directed to the gnostics, who's heterodoxical beliefs represented a threat to the other factions, and the organized church you see today is the result of the victors eliminating the competition by literally killing off the gnostic threat early in Church history after they gained control.
Point being, much like the early Xian gnostics, you're fighting a losing battle since the NT was literally written the victors who made damn-well sure the NT contained many passages that secured their jobs, and served as a justification for organized religion, serving as "the body of Christ" (where the ones who clearly lost the battle were the ancient gnostics, who believed in a minimal organization with rotating roles just to avoid implementation of organizational structures, and instead emphacized having a quite-personal religious experience, based on 'gnosis'). Hence believers like TEC and you really should be modern gnostics, since you all detest the structure of modern religious organizations, and want to have a personal relationship with Jesus and God.
EdenOne, you really need to learn something about the gnostics if you're going to bother to believe in supernatural stuff: Elaine Pagels wrote a book which covers the centuries-long battle for control between early church fathers and the gnostic elements, called "The Gnostic Gospels".
BTW, if you think you're dealing with a judicial committee who responds to well-reasoned logical arguments that are backed up by scripture and/or well-researched history, and you think you can talk them out of their power and control, then YOU in fact, are completely delusional. They could be COMPLETELY and utterly wrong, but it's their game and they also get to serve as umpire to call their own shots and get to make up the score. You're not in control; THEY are, and they might tolerate your quirkiness, but you push it too far, and you'll be DFed so fast, your head will spin and the worst part is your own family will likely be shunning you....
Adam
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jgnat
I think of Barbara Anderson's work on the history of the church, partially quoted here:
"Nonetheless, the Witnesses say, there were always “true” Christians on earth from the death of the last Christian apostle up until the days of Charles Taze Russell and his associates all of whom adhered closely to the original teachings of Jesus and his apostles. One memorable and lengthy assignment from Karl was to identify these true Christians.
My examination was based upon four points or standards which the “sons of the kingdom” needed to have in common to link up with each other; three of those standards were rejection of the Trinity, hellfire, and immortality of the human soul. However, the fourth standard was the most difficult—there had to be acceptance of the ransom sacrifice of Christ, that is, as defined by Jehovah’s Witnesses. For months the Writing Department brought in relevant library books from Europe and the United Kingdom, as well as the United States. I read English translations of important foreign-language books discussing break-a-way nonconformist religious groups before and after the Orthodox Reformation, including groups during what is commonly called the Radical Reformation period. To say the least, it was extremely fascinating to study early Arian movements, along with the Lollards, Waldenses, Socinians, and Anabaptists with a critical eye.
Subsequently, my careful analysis of the facts convinced Karl there was not one generation of true Christians linking to a succeeding generation based on the four points as outlined above. Karl closed this research project by promising this assertion would never again be made, although, to this day, the teaching has not been abandoned."
