"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  And of course, JWs are programmed to point to the "governing body" in Acts 15. Several points are noteworthy.

  1) Paul is clearly not a member of the gb, yet more of his writings are preserved than any of the others.

  2) The proceedings and debate are recorded for all to read with testimony and opinions presented by many different people. Why would the WT organization deviate from the early "organization" by keeping all their meetings private?

  3) While the entire issue revolved around circumcision, the conclusion doesn't even mention the word. Rather, it leaves it to personal decision, specifically saying, "adding no further burden to you." When has the WT GB ever backed down from adding further burdens? (Get a degree... die at armageddon.) The decision was evidently so obscure that Paul, who had previously opposed circumcising Gentile Christians, in Acts 15 takes Timothy's penis in hand and circumcised him. That is some messed up leadership right there.

  4) In that decision handed down in 49CE was the clear statement "... abstaining from things sacrificed to idols...." While WT today focuses on "blood" in the following part of the statement, what do we find about the seriousness of the word "abstaining"? 1 Cor. 10:25-30, Paul explains that eatting things sacrificed to idols is a conscience matter. Basically, he went against the "abstain" command and reduced it to "don't ask, don't tell." Could you imagine if a DO, CO, or elder wrote you a letter contradicting the GB, saying, "it's okay to take blood, just don't let anyone weak in faith find out."

  When WT tries to point to a first century organization, it's all fiction. The conformity and clergy/laity structure didn't appear until the Church appeared. The organization WT is trying to emulate is the Catholic Church.
• 

  Island Man

  I think Eric did a great video on this some time back:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLXOzQQ2ePM

  I think there are 3 main counter points to the "always an organization" self-serving propaganda:

  1. JW can't identify any organization from the time after the apostles to the time of C.T. Russel. If God was using an organization in Russel's day then why didn't he join that organization instead of forming his own group which was later transformed into an organization by Ratherfraud?

  2. God already has a heavenly organization headed by Jesus. Jesus is fully capable of organizing and overseeing the preaching work from heaven using angels and holy spirit to direct individual christians on earth. So for the preaching work to be accomplished globally all individual christians have to do is follow the leadings of holy spirit, preaching when and where the spirit impels them. The book of Acts records accounts of angels and holy spirit directing individuals to preach in certain areas and to certain individuals. Why would it be any different today?

  The JWs' saying that a visible earthly organization is needed to carry out the preaching work globally is not only redundant but is also an affront to the competence of God's heavenly organization. The claim implicitly demonstrates their lack of faith in the ability of God's heavenly organization headed by christ to organize and direct the preaching effort using only holy spirit and angels and unaided by human oversight. It reminds me of the people in Samuel's day who wanted a visible human king which Jehovah regarded as an affront to his own invisible kingship. The JWs are actually mirroring this attitude. Their reasoning demonstrates that they can't imagine Jesus using just holy spirit and angels to organize and direct the preaching effort without human oversight. It reveals that they actually lack faith in God, Jesus and his heavenly organization. They have to have a VISIBLE earthly organization run by humans because they are really walking by sight and not by faith.

  Of course, it is the organization that is pushing the visible organization propaganda that the JWs are just parroting. The organization uses such propaganda to make itself relevant - as a necessity in the lives of JWs. It is a self serving idea that it feeds all JWs to make them dependent on it and so that they will continue to donate funds and labor to upkeep it. This brings me to the third point.

  3. Hierarchical organizations like the JWs' ultimately violate the principle Jesus highlighted at Matthew 6:24: "No one can slave for two masters." Visible earthly organizations have to be headed by imperfect men and you know the saying 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. So inevitably these organizations headed by imperfect, corruptible men eventually develop self-serving motives geared at serving the organization's interests or the interests of the leaders, and which clash with the christian requirement to accurately and impartially follow the teachings of the bible. For example, if it is deemed necessary to sell literature to raise money to sustain or enrich the organization then the organization might implement that policy and twist some scriptures to support it. But this position would clash with Jesus' words: "you received free, give free". A situation of two masters is thus created - Serve God by obeying the bible, or serve The Organization by selling its literature? In this way earthly organizations headed by men divide the christian's loyalty and devotion to God, putting him in much the same position as someone slaving for two masters. But it's made all the more pernicious when the christian is misled to believe that the organization is God's organization and obeying the organization is tantamount to obeying God. This is what Watchtower has done.
• 

  Emery

  To add to the discussion, here are some more points.

  The "organization" of Israel was based on the CONDITIONAL Mosaic covenant. Obviously, the Israelites couldn't hold up the laws and customs pertaining to the covenant and ended it by crucifying Jesus. Christians now operate under a new covenant which establishes Jesus as high priest and greater Moses. You could show your family that after Jesus' death, when the temple veil (which separated the holy of holies, God and men) was torn in 2, this signified the end of that "organizational" arrangement. God was now available to all men, never to dwell in temples again. This is one of the best theological arguments i've heard against organization.

  This website has a good article on the subject. http://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.html
• 

  problemaddict

  Eden,

  Besides the idea there was central leadership in the first century which is at best debateable, there is really nothing to run on. One could make an arguement there was at least some form of somebody "in charge", based on some of the language, but there isn't alot of sympathy for that viewpoint on this board of course.

  The "always" thing takes them into odd territory. Mainly because most people will point to the Isrealite Kings as the other "organization" that seems obvious. There is a problem with that however. Jehovah only dealt with prophets and judges up to that point. He tried to talk them OUT of having kings. Do you remember that? So while a King was annointed by a prophet, it wasn't really Jehovah organizing that whole thing. Hence the mess.

  I actually had someone go so far as to say that because the universes order is so precise and on such an amazing timetable, that order must exist in every facet of his actions, especially with his worshipers here on earth.

  Talk about a stretch!
• 

  Comatose

  Go to youtube and search Fred Franz Gilead Talk. In it the President of the Watchtower spends about thirty minutes proving there was no first century governing body.
• 

  Doug Mason

  The words that you read in the OT were produced by people desiring to establish and entrench their religious authority. These people they invented - Adam, Moses, Aaron, and so on were employed for religious purposes.

  For example, one group of religionists held up Moses as their exemplar, whereas another group held up Aaron. Hence when each wrote their myth about the exodus, for example, they wrote it so that their hero had the upper hand. Only in the 5th century were these separate accounts woven into the composite form we see today.

  While the stories started to be written about the 8th century BCE (some 400 years after the Moses event) but the majority was written and recreated during the 6th century BCE neo-Babylonian captivity. You can easily see the power play between the religious party and the royal household when the former passes jusgment on the latter.

  Religion is always about power, about control, about manipulating minds. The WTS employs heavy-handed tactics; one could surmise the reasons, perhaps the current crop of leaders owe much to the influence of Rutherford. I suggest that the Elders act the way they do because they are fully aware of the consequences should they fail to toe the line in meting out sanctions and judgment.

  Paranoia from top to bottom.

  Doug
• 

  Finkelstein

  Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply

  No Jehovah never used an organization, its the other way around men have used Jehovah

  (YHWH) from the original people who created this god, to people running the WTS. Corporation.

  From this usage there is a long string of lies and embellished stories to create a semblance of power

  and relevance to this supposed God of human imagination.

  The WTS actually commercialized these stories in their publishing agenda.

  So the answer should be who used who ?
• 

  Iown Mylife

  "Organized" to manage my own life. WT is not organized to benefit ME - just the opposite! I hadda get the hell out. It's a criminal CULT.

  Marina
• 

  Captain Blithering

  Devil's advocate speaking, if there was to be no organisation, why would there be all the talk of overseers and congregations etc? (if you're talking to someone that's not ready to discount the bible as a disparate bunch of collected mens words...)
• 

  Separation of Powers

  My response:

  "Yes, that it true. I have always believed that Jehovah had an organization, some group of people that were organized to represent his interests here on earth. In fact, THAT is one of the reasons that got me to realize that the current organization is no longer God's channel, if in fact, it ever was."

  "What do you mean by that?" the reply.

  "Well, although the organization didn't teach an apostolic succession like the Catholics and Mormons do, they did teach that when Jesus founded the Christian congregation that he told his apostles, Peter in particular, that even the "gates of Hades would not overpower" what he established on the earth. So, when he died, the apostles carried on the work and even when they died, as the Society used to say, "there was always a small group of faithful anointed" entrusted with carrying on."

  "Yes, that's right. That's what we've always believed." the emphatic reply.

  "You mean, that is what the organization USED to teach. Now, the organization's position is that after the death of the last apostle, the apostacy rapidly wiped out pretty much all vestige of the Christian congregation, Jehovah's organization. It was left nearly destitute of any true and verifiable anointed follower up until 1918-1919, when the "faithful slave" came to exist. So, essentially the belief now is that Christ's congregation, what he established so that "even the gates of Hades" couldn't overpower it was wiped out with a simplistic article that placed the modern day Governing Body from Rutherford to now in a position greater than any of those faithful Christian who were martyred, those titans of language and earnest study that made the Bible accessible to the common man, much to their own peril. THOSE people are not VERIFIABLE anointed, so they don't matter and thus, there was no organization of people to look after the interests of God on Earth for those 2000 years."

  "OK, I didn't know that." quizzical response.

  "You should probably look it up."

  SOP