"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  tec

  I haven't read everything, but Laika's response bottom of the first page is pretty much spot on.

  As to the wts reasoning:

  Adam... is a man, not an organization.

  Noah... is a man, not an organization.

  Abraham... is a man, not an organization.

  The only organization God EVER sanctioned was Israel and the temple/levitical priesthood/etc, that He organized them inTO.

  Hence His title: the Most Holy One of ISRAEL

  He never instituted another organization after Israel. That house was left empty; meaning God removed His spirit from there; and gave all authority CHRIST who, himself, gives the water of life/holy spirit (as He did at Pentecost in Acts).

  God stated clearly that the One we must go to is Christ.

  "This is my Son, who I have chosen. Listen to Him."

  Nothing and no one else.

  We are not meant or told to follow the apostles. We are not meant or told to follow or be baptized into Paul or Apollos or Cephas. No organization. No other man. No religious leaders.

  Just Christ.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  EdenOne

  So, the "channel" has always existed, but it wasn't always organized in an .... organization...?

  Eden
• 

  adamah

  TEC, can you provide some scriptural references to back up those many assertions of "we are not meant to...."?

  EdenOne said-

  So, the "channel" has always existed, but it wasn't always organized in an .... organization...?

  Uh, yeah? Have you not dealt with an organization that was disorganized? Have you never dealt with the WTBTS, the US military, USPS, or even <wait for it...> Congress?

  An organization doesn't cease to exist, simply because it's disorganized; it would need to officially be disbanded. Until it's scuttled, it serves as an ad-hoc arrangement, which often is disorganized.

  Adam
• 

  Laika

  'pretty much'? Which part did I get wrong?
• 

  tec

  Oh, I'm sorry, Laika. I did not mean that like that. I don't see that you got anything wrong with anything that you shared in your post.

  So... spot on. I thought it was an EXCELLENT post and understanding.

  Israel... then Christ.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  TEC, can you provide some scriptural references to back up those many assertions of "we are not meant to...."?

  Sure, although a) we are not told to follow anyone else. So why do it? Would not the person claiming that we are to follow an organization or someone else have to show how that is true?

  I gave this one:

  "This is my Son... listen to Him." (matt 3;17; Luke 9:35; Mark 1;11)

  Then also:

  "I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

  "But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth father for you have one faather and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher' for you have one Teacher, the Christ."

  "Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68

  "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

  What organization did God approve of after Israel?

  He said... listen to His Son.

  Didn't say anthing else about an organization.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Aurelius

  Paragragh 17 of the same study article:

  "17 As we learned in the preceding article, the harvest season began in 1914. In that year, a number of important developments began to unfold. Jesus was enthroned as King, and the last days began. ( Rev. 11:15 ) From 1914 to the early part of 1919, Jesus accompanied his Father to the spiritual temple to do a much-needed inspection and cleansing work. * ( Mal. 3:1-4 ) Then, starting in 1919, it was time to begin gathering the wheat. Was it finally the time for Christ to appoint one organized channel to dispense spiritual food? Yes, indeed!"

  -------

  'to appoint' implies to me that an organized channel was not previously appointed.
• 

  TD

  In a recent meeting with Elders, an argument was used to the effect that Jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the WTS must be that organization today, since God must be using one. Naturally, I know what arguments I've used to counter that argument. But I'm interested in hearing yours. Has God "always" used an organization? Must he use an organization? Does he need one?

  If I understand the argument of the late Raymond Franz and similar minded xJW's correctly, it holds that God used organizations but spoke through individuals. Speaking through individuals was as often as not, for the purpose of calling a wayward organization and/or its leaders to repentance. That is the biblical pattern.

  The JW organization does not follow that pattern today, because they have simultaneously claimed both the office of executive and the office of prophet for themselves. So the type of check and balance embodied in incidents like Nathan's confrontation with David (2 Samuel 12) as well as Paul's confrontation with James and the pillars of the early church (Galatians 2) would never be tolerated today.

  So I think arguing over the biblical precedent for organization (Or an alleged lack thereof) is barking up the wrong tree. It's meaningless for JW's to justify the existence of their organization on biblical precedent if the pattern established by that precedent is not being followed.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Well, let's look at this again...

  Aurelius said-

  The WT recently admitted that the 'channel' was not always in existence

  WT Study Edition - July 2013

  There was no consistent, organized channel for dispensing spiritual food. That would eventually change.

  Saying there was "no consistent, organized channel" does NOT imply there was NO channel for dispensing spiritual food, only the channel was inconsistent and disorganized at some times.

  That actually sounds more like a fitting description of current environment the GB finds itself in, LOL!

  Adam

  Also, this:

  16 The Bible Students’ diligent study of the Scriptures yielded rich results. Those loyal men and women exposed false doctrines and spread spiritual truths, publishing and distributing Bible literature far and wide. Their work won the hearts and convinced the minds of many who were hungering and thirsting for spiritual truth. An intriguing question therefore arises: Were the Bible Students in the years that led up to 1914 the appointed channel through which Christ would feed his sheep? No. They were still in the growing season, and the arrangement for a channel to provide spiritual food was still taking shape. The time had not yet come for the weedlike imitation Christians to be separated from the true Christian wheat.

  I belive that the same WT article says that ONLY the FDS [ annointed at World Headquarters ] can dispense spiritual food. How do we know this? Duh?? Because they are dispensing spiritual food! Therefore, either the Bible Students were not dispensing spiritual food as paragraph 16 states, or they were part of the FDS, which is a class of sorts. It cannot be both ways if ONLY the FDS can prepare and dispense "spiritual food."*

  * The commentary assumes that the reader is viewing the matter from a JW perspective, and is prepared to ignore the fact the the FDS was parabolic.

  DD
• 

  Aurelius

  DD - I think you have mis-quoted me