Poppers,kenneth is crazey. Sadly ppl fall for his scams
I agree. I like to watch him for shits and giggles. Another one I watch for the same reason is Arnold Murray and his son Dennis Murray on Shephard's Chapel.
Theists - does your god DESERVE to be respected or worshipped?
by cantleave 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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poppers
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KateWild
Reality without comfort is missing something for me. I would like both, warm snuggly fuzzy feeling, with a dose of reality to keep my feet firmly on the floor. Sam xx
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prologos
Snare& racket, on your relevant science chart:
how about a Gedankenexperiment on a maker? thoughtexperiemnt a la' Einstein on "c" or his Niels Bohr QM discussions?
looking back toward the beginning we see the mass & energy CONCENTRATION of the universe increasing.
At the pass, the Big Bang funnel, perhaps of planck size, movement through time stops. max mass, max energy, time =0.
a white, not a black hole.
on the other side the cause of this energy, this start of movement through time going our way.
Given the good results for us, was it made well?
should we appreciate it? respect at least the results?
should we accept the down side that comes with existence?
read up on Sir Roger Penrose and movement through the big bang for possibilities.
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snare&racket
Prologos, we can have emotional responses to scientifically learned data obviously, we can even be led to believe and have emotional responses to data made up from thin air. It is the mis-identification of what science is, I was discussing. Not what science finds out.
You make an observation, create a hypothesis on what you have seen, you make an experiment to test your hypothesis to failure by making predicitions and using probability equations. Most of science is done to a 0.05% threshold. So 95% of the time we should get the same result if we repeat the same tests, it is an indicator of 'confidence level'. When complete we display all results, we analyse them, then we compare it to our predictions and make a conclusion. The scientific method doesnt end there, then we ask all experts in the field to examine what we did, comment, critisise, improve or completly scrub the data if it is that bad. But this is rare as research wont get paid for or published if it is THAT bad. But all research gets analysed for how strictly they worked to keeping everything methodical and unbiased.
That is what science is, thats all, that process in the above paragraph, whether they are dating dinosaur bones, testing a new drug in a hospital or measuring gasses on mars, it is the same scientific method. That is what doing SCIENCE is.... Using that 5 step method.
if you believe religion has a role in your LIFE or in your PERSPECTIVE of the universe or if you choose to see EVERYTHING through a lens of religion, that is up to you. But religion has no place at all in the 5 stages of scientific method? How could it be introduced, which religion, why.. How would it make the results more accurate? It simply makes no sense to suggest science needs religion! I am so tired in saying it now, it is akin to saying 'correctly removing an engine from a car as the instructions say how, is lame without religion'. the scientific method is JUST AN INSTRUCTION ON HOW TO DO EXPERIMENTS.
A scientist is someone doing research by using those 5 steps! Thats all! darwin was not a biologist but he was an AMAZING scientist because he stuck to the rules and did THOUSANDS of experiments maticulously.
So please, no more science AND religion or science v religion. Science is JUST an instruction manual for how to best research something you have seen!
The irony is, religion DID force itself on science by actually dictating what could and could not be tested snd measured and questioned, it led to hundreds of years of no progress in humanity, hence we call that period THE DARK AGES.
hey kate x I am not saying the option is religion or science, that is a misunderstanding of what science is. REALITY and COMFORT can be represented by anything that fits those criteria forthe person reading it. But for me specifically.....
Comfort was all the promises made by religions and human appeasment.
Reality was the history and evidence concerning the religions and the idea of a god and the mountain of evidence we now posess about the universe.
you say reality feels lame without the promises and stories you have been told and led to beleive. Me personally, I was hungry for truth and evidence, that way I write my perspective on the world and I dictate my comforts. I wanted to wipe the board clean and start from scratch..what was real, what was true?
I did that, it took time and effort (the alternative being to let others do it for you...like the GOV Body or Pope) and I truly find life more valuble and precious than I ever did before, I value the importance of community, culture and social cohesion more than ever. I value honesty, truth, doing good more than ever. I value critical appraisal and independant thinking more than ever. I value achievment and success more than ever. I value the privelage of having offspring more than everything and hope I am one day fortunate enough to do so. All these things were realised based on REALITY, based on EVIDENCE and it is just as real and comforting as reading it from a religious pamphlet, more so because there is actual evidence of it and you did the leg work finding it.
Living and dying is a great example. I appreciate how lucky I am to be here, now, this second.... Of all the crossroads in the universal, planetary, humanitary history, had one thing changed I wouldnt be here. I was one of millions of sperm, the one that made it, survived birth and childhood.... What a privelage. How lucky! What are the chances!? Just think.... There was a big bang, physical laws became inevitble, energy and matter formed.. Dust, stars, planets and Solar systems formed. Stars caused the planets to spin and turn, stars forced atoms together and gasses and elements were introduced to the universe.... Carbon, hydrogen, helium, nitrogen, oxygen... Sugars form in space.... These atomic molecule accumilate and spread to the planets, the moons, the stars, in the enviroments of the planets, these star made elements start reacting with each other to form acids and complex structures, the nature of the planet NATURALLY SELECTS the molecules simply in the sense that some survive better than others in different enviroments. The more complex these molecules become, the more diverse, the better the chance that they are prolonged on the planet... A water proof fat bubble helps (fst is just carbon hydrogen and oxygen atoms, hence the term 'carbohydrates') otherwise known as a cell membrane, in it are acids called neucleotides that have been proven to form from thin air in earths early atmosphere.... These ACIDS eventually over a very long time interact with sugars, one in paticular RIBOSE and the backbone of RNA the early version of DNA is ready and waiting.... RNA... RIBOSE (a sugar) NUCLEIC ACID, when the oxygen atom is taken out the sugar molecule you have DEOXY-RIBOSE NUCLEIC ACID.... DNA.....biology begins to develop.
Then in the point in time thebiologically develped organisms call 2014. The organisms look out at the stars, the universe, the galaxy and their opportunity to be a part if it all...
some of them say "wow!"
some say "I was told by someone I would have more and have longer!"
I don't mean you Kate, but how ungreatful is it to say it isnt enough! We want more! Animals die, plants die, planets die, stars die, solar systems die, galaxies die..... This is life, this is the only way life can be, wish it to be different all your life, or jump around happy that we are lucky enough to have a front row seat! If you know your chemistry, you should know your laws of thermodynamics, with that you know of energy conservation. For us to live on is to deny our offspring or sny other the chance to survuve. Not inly that, it threatens the whole human race. We can only adapt and survive our enviroment through selecting new genes every generation... If there are no new generations the evolution stops and we stop adapting, though our enviroment will continue adspting... It will be our doom.
i 100% sincerely would never want to take another persons opportunity to experience THIS, in exchange for me having a second go, nevermind multitudes of never born people just to satisfy my wants.
There is no evidence of an afterlife, there is plenty of evidence for its invention. We are content with animals simply dying, we even call it nature. As a JW I would call desth unnatural..... I remember the day I really thought about it, it hit me like a train.....mEVERY SINGLE HUMAN THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.....HAS DIED. Literally 10/10 of them.... Thats when it hit home.... How likely is it I am going to be of the first who dont! Where was I getting this information, from who and with what motive?
The year 1904 took place, I know it did, there is evidence. Kate sit and think about how 1904 feels to you! Empty nothingness. But the planet was full in 1904 and those people were as real as me and you, unique as we are all different. But they are gone. In 2104 we will be the last chapter in a generations experience, the long gone people of our time. The reality of sll this makes me MORE excited sbout life, it makes it MORE valuble, it makes every moment more precious. Believing this is a practice run, or that we will live forever or that there is definetly more the other side of death ... Can lead to a distinct lack of appreciation of life.
There is no religion v's reality..... Think about what you are saying there. REALITY IS THE REALITY, anything else is just quite simply wrong or willful delusion.
Ssy no to reslity, say yes to it, it is a personal choice. But you can't demote scientific methods to being valueless or lame without your personal needs for comfort.
I personally get comfort from truth and therefore knowing what I am dealing with. You can see life as short and fragile and get upset, or you can see it as a fantastic opportunity, an awe inducing experience that we should endeavour to value, every single tiny moment of It bevause of how VALUBLE it is.
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FlyingHighNow
......and....what sort of creature demands worship or you die/get tortured forever?
The god of fundamentalists. Otherwise, there are some pretty groovy gods and goddesses.
Find Jehovah Unmasked and read it. Very good, easy to read, informative, for many: very helpful.
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humbled
I like your post, snare-- It is something I've been thinking about.
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HB
I don't often join in here, but just wanted to say to Snare & Racket I thought that your post [#2327] was brilliant......you explained very lucidly how exciting, wonderful and precious the experience of being alive becomes when it is based on identifying what is real and true.
In my experience, most believers base their lives not on rationality but on what gives them emotional comfort. They think that showing respect to their god provides them with a depth of emotion not available to non believers. They honestly think that life without god would be grey, emotionless, empty and without hope, lacking the touch of magic that the supernatural offers. They are sorry for athiests and humanists who they perceive as missing out on the breath and depth of emotions they have.
But your post expressed with passion the fact that when you accept that there is probably no god and definitely not one that deserves respect, life becomes, to use your words, "a fantastic opportunity, an awe inducing experience that we should endeavour to value, every single tiny moment of because of how valuable it is."
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KateWild
I appreciate how lucky I am to be here, now, this second. I don't mean you Kate, but how ungreatful is it to say it isnt enough! We want more!-snare
Snare, a very interesting and welll written post at around 3am UK time. Do you ever sleep lad? I really enjoyed reading al the science in your post and I also enjoyed the gartitude and appreciation you show for science.
For me however, I show gratitude and appreciation to God, by expressing that. To me God manifests qualities in the Laws of the Universe as a spirit being vastly superior to us puny humans. This makes me feel humbled, to give gratitude and appreciation to the creator.
IMO, I feel it is far more probable that an intelligent creator is responsible that not, but this does not negate my anger about why an intelligent creator would observe suffering and do nothing, it fuels my enquiry as to God's thoughts and plans. This also does not negate the fact that organised religions are IMO mechanisms of control. Especially of women and the vulnerable.
Thank you for such a detailed post, I actually connected with God through your post and drew closer to him in an appreciative manner.
Take care snare, and get some proper rest. Docotor's orders Sam xx
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punkofnice
When I left the JWs I went to Christian churches. I had to take stepping stones from one side of the brook to another. I couldn't leave the concept of there being a 'god' immediately. It took a lot of time and searching. I even went on the mystic path for a brief while.
Now though, I see NO evidence for a 'god' at all.
Yes, it was scary. To know that I wasted most of my life living my life frightened of an imaginary despot in the sky...it hurts.
To know that when I die there is nothing more after, no afterlife, no heaven......it hurts.
But at least it's reality. I prefer reality to a false hope.
Life is what it is and then you die.
Man has made god in his own image. I was raised to believe............now I don't.....can't.......if god existed then that twat wouldn't be sitting back doing nothing. I am not bitter(TM) against god......how could I be? God doesn't exist...I am bitter at myself for being duped all those years when I could have done something better with my life.
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KateWild
Give her a break, I see Kate has taken a fondness to Einstein - snare post 2315
Ahhh thank you snare, everything makes more sense now as to what you were saying about my use of the word LAME. I must confess I didn't read this post properly last night. Ooops sorry snare.
So snare do you think I am on my way to becoming an atheist? Or Snare are you trying to convert me?
Yes I have taken a fondeness to Einstein. Snare, you believe he was worshipping the God of the gaps by your post, but with the knowledge I have gained from reading Max Jammer, he was humbled by his lack of knowledge and wanted to give credit to a being more superior to him for the laws of the universe.
Do all physicists today profess to be atheists? I don't believe they do. Sam xx