The Nephilim - What can I say!

by Matty 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Matty

  Thanks Seedy!
  Well, I couldn't let this one go! Here's what the Insight book says about the Numbers 13:33 scripture:

  Insight Book 1 929

  "The faithless spies reported to the Israelites that in Canaan they "saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who are from the Nephilim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes." (Numbers 13:33) These men of extraordinary size, called the sons of Anak (probably meaning "Long-Necked [that is, of tall stature]"), were not actually Nephilim, as reported, but were only unusually tall men, for the Nephilim, the offspring of angels and women (Genesis 6:4), perished in the Flood."

  Insight Book 2 Page 493

  "No doubt there were some large men in Canaan, as other scriptures show, but never except in this "bad report," which was carefully couched in language designed to strike terror and cause panic among the Israelites, are they called Nephilim."

  Did the spies deliberately lie about this sighting of the Nephilim to be mischievous? Or did they genuinely think that this was the case?

  Was it just their imagination playing tricks? Was it that they just saw some unusually big dudes hanging around Canaan?

  Nephilim are pretty unmistakable – not only to look at, but also with their behavior. Did the bible writer expect us to know that they weren't really Nephilim, or was he a bit confused over his own chronology? This was supposedly the same writer (Moses) that wrote the Genesis account – you would have expected him to elucidate a bit more here to save confusion.

  The FDS have an answer for everything, not always a satisfactory answer, but an answer nonetheless! I wonder how many other bible accounts can be explained away by the "Oh, they must have been mistaken / Oh, they must have been lying" tack?
• 

  Matty

  Pope - looking at that is very bad for my health, what are you trying to do to this poor born n' bred JW lad?
• 

  one

  "In fact, I'm POSITIVE I've heard this before because it is the rationale for how Jesus came to be born 'perfect' out of an imperfect woman."

  Dont change your POLARITY, i have "heard" and READ the "rationale".

  btw
  Heavens must be a boring MACHO place.

  There you have it. Reference to God as a MALE (HE) (FATHER) entity was explained away as a language limitation. Like there is no way to denominate a NEUTRAL, no sex person. HELP any hebrew scholar!!

  Anyway HE is responsible for the thousands(?) of languages in use today. But did not take care to "miracilously" implant a needed term in the Babilone TOWER builder'S new vocabulary. A NEUTRAL term to refer to HIM.

  Hey females do you condier HIM a male chauvinist?.

  Why are woman more devout persons than males?.

  I guess opposite polarity attract. According to LDH woman are POSITVE.

  This is 'getting' complicated, i quit
• 

  raven101

  The bible can be a very confusing topic if you expect it to be consistent or make sense . . . but what do you expect analysis of (largely poorly written) fiction to be like? Personally I like Stephen King better, at least he's consistent.

  raven101
• 

  Sangdigger

  This is not a doctrinal teaching unique just to JW's. John Schofield, a nineteenth century Bible Historian believed and taught this, also Author Pink, a Hebrew scholar and author of many books on Bible doctrine. More modern preachers are Chuck Missler ( he has a complete study of this subject on his publishers webpage-Koinonian House Publishers) I dont subscribe to all of Chucks theories, but he has some fascinating facts that in my opinion, need to at least be considered, before dismissing this teaching. eg...The hebrew words "Bnai Elohim" are only used when reffering to Angels. This phrase was used in the Genesis verse.
• 

  Bleep

  Only God has the power to create things. But he can have help with the design. The demons have the power to go into the body. They can also use telapathy. This same power is used as a so called abduction which is really a taking control of a body. There is a misunderstanding that there are aliens out there but it is just another demon sad to say.
• 

  openminded

  Absurdities

  "Ignorance, No Matter How Sanctified With Pious Words, How Buttressed by Scripture Quotations, Is Finally Still Ignorance" - John Shelby Spong

  Genesis

  1. God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5
  2. God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program. 1:6-8
  3. Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11
  4. "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16
  5. "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." Really? Then why are only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than five thousand stars are visible from earth with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Yet this verse says that God put the stars in the firmament "to give light" to the earth. 1:17
  6. All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous animals millions of years before humans existed. 1:30
  7. God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. (Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20
  8. God's clever, talking serpent. 3:1
  9. God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11
  10. God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14
  11. God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18
  12. God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve. 3:21
  13. Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time -- his parents! 4:14
  14. "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." 4:16
  15. "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from? 4:17
  16. Lamech kills a man and claims that since Cain's murderer would be punished sevenfold, whoever murders him will be punished seventy-seven fold. That sounds fair. 4:23-24
  17. God created a man and a woman, and he "called their name Adam." So the woman's name was Adam, too! 5:2
  18. The first men had incredibly long lifespans. 5:5, 5:8, 5:11, 5:14, 5:17, 5:20, 5:23, 5:27, 5:31, 9:29
  19. The "sons of God" copulated with the "daughters of men," and has sons who became "the mighty men of old, men of renown." 6:2-4
  20. "There were giants in the earth in those days." 6:4
  21. God decides to kill all living things because the human imagination is evil. Later (8:21), after he kills everything, he promises never to do it again because the human imagination is evil. Go figure. 6:5
  22. God repents. 6:6-7
  23. God tells Noah to make one small window (18 inches square) in the 450 foot ark for ventilation. 6:16
  24. Noah, the just and righteous. 6:9, 7:1
  25. Noah, the drunk and naked. 9:20-21
  26. God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11
  27. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11
  28. Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." After this God "said in his heart" that he'd never do it again because "man's heart is evil from his youth." So God killed all living things (6:5) because humans are evil, and then promises not to do it again (8:21) because humans are evil. The mind of God is a frightening thing. 8:20-21
  29. All animals have hands. 9:5
  30. "Be ye fruitful, and multiply." With 6 billion people on this planet, we need to disobey God on this one. 9:7
  31. God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever the animals see it they will remember God's promise not to do it again. 9:9-13
  32. The entire tenth chapter is the first of many boring genealogies (see 1 Chr.1-9, Mt.1:1-17, Lk.3:23-28 for other examples) that we are told to avoid in 1 Tim.1:4 and Tit.3:9 ("Avoid foolish questions and genealogies.") 10:1-32
  33. God worries that people could actually build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven. 11:4
  34. God is worried again. He remembers how humans nearly became gods by finding and eating from the tree of life (Gen.3:22). It was a close call, but now he faces a similar threat. He begins talking to himself again saying, "Behold, the people is one, and they all have one language." He fears that "now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." 11:6
  35. Poor Pharaoh couldn't resist the "very fair" Sarai, and he takes her into his harem. (She must have been well preserved, since she was about seventy years old at the time.) 12:15
  36. The Amalekites were smitten before Amalek (from whom they descended) was born. Amalek was the grandson of Esau (Gen.36:12). 14:7
  37. Abram was 99 years old when he was circumcised. To commemorate this important event, God changes his name to Abraham. 17:24
  38. Sarah, who is about 90 years old and has gone through menopause, laughs at God when he tells her that she will have a son. She asks God if she will "have pleasure" with her "Lord" [Abraham], when both are so very old. God assures her that he will return and impregnate her at the appointed time. 18:11-14
  39. God, who is planning another mass murder, is worried that Abraham might try to stop him. so he asks himself if he should hide his intentions from Abraham. 18:17
  40. "And the Lord went his way." Now where might that be? 18:33
  41. Lot [the just and righteous (2 Pet.2:7-8)] offers his daughters to a crowd of angel rapers. 19:8
  42. Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
  43. Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. 19:30-38
  44. "The Lord visited Sarah" and he "did unto Sarah as he had spoken." And "Sarah conceived and bare Abraham a son." (God-assisted conceptions never result in daughters.) 21:1-2
  45. These verses suggest that Ishmael was an infant when his father abandoned him, yet according to Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8 he must have been about 16 years old. It must have been tough for poor Hagar to carry Ishmael on her shoulder and to then "cast him under one of the shrubs." 21:14-18
  46. Abraham names the place where he nearly kills Isaac after Jehovah. But according to Ex.6:3, Abraham couldn't have known that God's name was Jehovah. 22:14
  47. Abraham needed God's help to father Isaac when he was 100 years old (Gen.21:1-2, Rom.4:19, Heb.11:12). But here, when he is even older, he manages to have six more children without any help from God. 25:2
  48. Isaac's wife (Rebekah), like his mother (Sarah), was also barren. 25:21
  49. Jacob names Bethel for the first time 28:19, before meeting Rachel. Later in 35:15, just before Rachel dies, he names Bethel again. (I guess the name didn't take the first time.)
  50. Jacob goes in unto Leah by mistake. 29:23, 25
  51. "And Jacob went in unto her. And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son." (These arrangements never seem to produce daughters.) 30:4
  52. Leah, not to be outdone, gives Jacob her maid (Zilpah) "to wife." And Zilpah "bare Jacob a son." 30:9
  53. Rachel trades her husband's favors for some mandrakes. And so, when Jacob cam home, Leah said: "Thou must come in unto me, for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he lay with her that night." Presumably God, by telling us this edifying story, is teaching us something about sexual ethics. 30:15-16
  54. And finally, "God remembered Rachel ... and opened her womb. And she conceived and bare a son [surprise, surprise]." 30:22
  55. Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39
  56. Jacob wrestles with god and wins. God changes Jacob's name to Israel to signify that he wrestled with God and "prevailed." 32:24-30
  57. God renames Jacob for the first time (See 35:10 for the first renaming). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway. And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 30:28
  58. "And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite ... and he took her, and went in unto her. And she conceived, and bare a son; and she called his name Er. And she conceived again [I guess Judah must have went in unto her again] and bare a son; and she called hi name Onan." (It seems that the probability of having a biblical daughter is considerably less than 50%.) 38:2-4
  59. Joseph uses a divining cup. 44:5, 15

      Exodus

  60. The Israelite population went from 70 (or 75) to several million in a few hundred years. 1:5,7, 12:37, 38:26
  61. God shows Moses some tricks that he says are sure to impress. First: Throw your rod on the ground; it will become a snake. Second: Make your hand appear leprous, and then cure it. Then, if these two don't do the trick, pour water on the ground and it will turn into blood. (That ought to do it!) 4:2-9
  62. God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. Luckily for Moses, his Egyptian wife Zipporah "took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he [God] let him go." This story shows the importance of penises to God, and his hatred of foreskins. 4:24-26
  63. God says that Abraham didn't know that his name was Jehovah. Yet in Gen.22:14 Abraham names the place where he nearly kills Isaac after God's name, Jehovah. 6:3
  64. In complaining about his difficulty with public speaking, Moses says, "Behold I am of uncircumcised lips." Maybe he should join Toastmasters. 6:12, 6:30
  65. God tells Moses and Aaron that when Pharaoh asks for a miracle just throw your rod down and it will become a serpent. So when the time comes, Moses throws down his rod and it becomes a serpent. But the Egyptian magicians duplicate this trick. Luckily, for Aaron, his snake swallows theirs. (Whew!) 7:9-13
  66. After the rod to serpent trick, God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. This is the first of the famous 10 plagues of Egypt. Unfortunately, the magicians know this trick too, and they do so with their enchantments. Shucks! Just how the river could be turned to blood by the Egyptian sorcerers after it had been turned to blood by Moses and Aaron is not explained. 7:17-24
  67. The second plague is frogs. Frogs covered the land. They were all over the beds and filled the ovens. But the Egyptian magicians did this trick too. (Did they wait until the frogs cleared out from the last performance before doing it again?) After the frog making contest was declared a draw, all the frogs died and "they gathered them together upon heaps; and the land stank." I bet. But at least it was all for the greater glory of God. 8:2-7
  68. Plague #3 is lice in man and beast. This is the first trick that the magicians couldn't do. After this the magicians were convinced that Moses and Aaron's plagues were done by "the finger of God," and they gave up trying to match the remaining seven plagues. I guess lice are harder to make than frogs. 8:17-19
  69. The fourth plague is swarms of flies, continuing the frogs and lice theme. 8:21
  70. The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die. 9:6
      But a little later (9:19-20, 12:29), God kills them again a couple more times.
  71. The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast.9:9-12
  72. The seventh plague is hail. "And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast." 9:22-25
  73. Eighth plague: locusts that are so thick that they "covered the face of the whose earth." (Even over Antarctica?) 10:4-5
  74. Ninth plague: three days of darkness. The darkness was so this that the Egyptians couldn't even see each other. But the darkness knew how to avoid the Israelites, and so "all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings." 10:21-23
  75. The Egyptians chased after the Israelites with "all Pharaoh's horses." But according to Ex.9:3-6 there wouldn't have been any horses, since God killed them all in "a very grievous murrain." 14:23
  76. God removes the wheels from the Egyptians' chariots. 14:25
  77. God divided the sea with a "blast of [his] nostrils." 15:8
  78. God stands on a rock and tells Moses to hit the rock. Then water comes out of it for the people to drink. God's such a clever guy!
  79. As long as Moses the magician keeps his hand up, the Israelites are successful in battle, but the second his hand falls, they start getting beat. 17:11-12
  80. "The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." So God is still fighting Amalek. I hope Moses can still keep his hand up. 17:14-16
  81. God tells the priests not to go up the steps to the altar "that thy nakedness not be discovered thereon." (Skirts on stairs are a problem.) 20:26
  82. God has hornets that bite and kill people.23:27-28
  83. God has feet.24:10
  84. Six chapters are wasted on divine instructions for making tables, candlesticks, snuffers, etc. 25 - 30
  85. God decrees that priestly garments, girdles, and bonnets shall be made "for glory and beauty." 28:2, 20, 40
  86. Aaron must where a bell whenever he enters "the holy place" or God will kill him. 28:34-35
  87. God gives instructions for making priestly breeches. "And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs shall they reach." 28:42
  88. God instructs the priests to burn the dung of bullocks outside the camp as a sin offering. 29:14
  89. God tells Moses to kill a ram and put the blood on the tip of Aaron's right ear, and on his right thumb, and on his right big toe, and then sprinkle the blood around the altar. Finally, sprinkle some on Aaron and his sons and on their garments. This will make them "hallowed." 29:20-21
  90. God tells Aaron and his sons to take the rump, fat, caul, kidneys, and right shoulder of the ram and add a loaf of bread or two, and a wafer of unleavened bread. Then they put the whole mess in the hands of Aaron and his sons and they wave them before the Lord. This is a wave offering. 29:22-24
  91. And whoever uses God's favorite perfume will be exiled. 30:37-38
  92. God's finger. 31:18
  93. Although God is too shy to let Moses see his face, he does permit a peek at his "back parts." (The divine mooning) 33:23
  94. God's name is Jealous. 34:14

      Leviticus

  95. God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9
  96. When you are making your animal sacrifices, be sure to remember that "all the fat is the Lord's." God loves blood and guts, but most especially fat. And he doesn't like to share! 3:16
  97. "If a soul shall sin through ignorance...." But how can someone "sin through ignorance?" Don't your have to at least know that an act is wrong before it can be sinful? 4:2, 13, 22, 27
  98. If you touch any unclean thing (like a dead cow or a bug) or the "uncleanness of man" (?), then you'll be both unclean and guilty. 5:2-3
  99. According to these verses it's possible to sin without even knowing that you've done something wrong. 5:15, 17
  100. Whatever touches the dead body of a burnt offering becomes holy. 6:25-27
  101. Be careful what you eat during these animal sacrifices. Don't eat fat or blood -- these are for God. (And he doesn't like to share!) 7:18-27
  102. God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today? 7:30-36
  103. Moses dresses up his brother Aaron with "the curious girdle of the ephod." 8:7-8
  104. Moses does it all for God. First he kills an animal; wipes the blood on Aaron's ears, thumbs, and big toes. Then he sprinkles blood round about and waves the guts before the Lord. Finally he burns the whole mess for "a sweet savour before the Lord." 8:14-32
  105. More killing, sprinkling of blood, waiving animal parts, and burning carcasses "before the Lord." 9:8-21
  106. If priests misbehave by uncovering their heads or tearing their clothes, then God will kill them and "all the people." 10:6
  107. God commands the Israelites to keep doing these wave and heave offerings "by a statute forever." 10:15
  108. Clams, oysters, crabs and lobsters are abominations to God. 11:10-12
  109. Be sure to watch out for those "other flying creeping things which have four feet." (I wish God wouldn't get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You'd think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have! 11:23
  110. God's treatment for leprosy: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-32
  111. Long, tiresome, and disgusting instructions regarding the treatment of men who have a "running issue" out of their "flesh." Very enlightening. "And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean ..." 15:2-15
  112. God explains the use of scapegoats. It goes like this: Get two goats. Kill one. Wipe, smear, and sprinkle the blood around seven times. Then take the other goat, give it the sins of all the people, and send it off into the wilderness. 16:6-28
  113. "Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with a mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee." I'm glad God told me about this, I was just about to do some of these awful things. 19:19
  114. God tells the Israelites that the fruit from fruit trees is "uncircumcised" for three years after the trees are planted. 19:23
  115. Don't eat anything with blood, don't round the corners of your head, mar the corners of your beard, make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, or print any marks on you. 19:26-28
  116. Stay away from wizards and people with familiar spirits. 19:35-36
  117. Priests must not "make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard." 21:5
  118. The high priest shall not "go in unto any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother." 21:11
  119. Handicapped people cannot approach the altar of God. They would "profane" it. 21:16-23
  120. Anyone with a "flat nose, or any thing superfluous" must stay away from the altar of God. 21:18
  121. A man with damaged testicles must not "come nigh to offer the bread of his God." 21:20
  122. A man who is unclean, or is a leper, or has a "running issue", or "whose seed goeth from him", or who touches any dead or "creeping thing" ... "shall not eat of the holy things, until he be clean." 22:3-5
  123. God gives us more instructions on killing and burning animals. I guess the first nine chapters of Leviticus wasn't enough. He says we must do this because he really likes the smell -- it is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 23:12-14, 18
  124. "If then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled ..." How can a heart be "uncircumcised"? 26:41
  125. 22:18-19
• 

  Matty

  Thank you openminded!

  I started looking at the skeptics annotated bible a few weeks ago, and it really is an interesting site.

  Edited by - matty on 18 July 2002 15:21:56
• 

  RunningMan

  God seems to have a pretty bizaare sense of justice. Consider:

  The earth was filled with so much badness that the only reasonable solution was to kill everything.

  The uninvolved humans, who were only incidental to the story - dead.
  The animals, who didn't know what the hell was going on - dead.
  The angels, who started the whole thing and caused all the problems - got away to heaven and remained unpunished for 4000 years.