Hey, you could have a knowledgeable householder who could quote the Luke verse, and also ask about the Witness opinion about the rapture? I believe the WTS has now decided that the rapture does happen. Then the householder could ask if we could not imagine that Jesus was taken up in the air like Elijah, Enoch and Moses...and how we will too someday? If Jesus did not go to heaven, where did he go?
Need help!!!! My wife has a part on whether Christ was raised a spirit body...
by DS211 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
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ILoveTTATT
Hi DS211, notice how jwfacts only goes into doctrine a little bit, not too much? There's a reason why that site is considered to be the best...
User adamah in a post mentioned that the Bible suffers from something similar to a person who shoots first and THEN paints a bullseye around the shot. On this topic the JW's can use a text in... Peter (?) where it says that Jesus was resurrected in the spirit.
The texts that previous posters in this thread have used point to Jesus resurrecting with a fleshly body.
which one does the Bible support? Seemingly, both. That's why I am agnostic.
But each one can arrive at their own conclusions. That is true freedom of belief, which no JW has... in practice.
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Apognophos
Second--i believe ive stated what i found wrong with the above idea. However this is something that came up last minute, i see a chance and decide to ask for advice so i can get something together--not to necessarily prove the WT wrong i guess but to get my wife to open her mind to explore the idea that something else might be there.
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Atheist, agnostic, muslim, whatever--it doesnt matter because Based on the Bible (the book she studies from) did Jesus get raised as a "physical" body or "spiritual" body? Not based on what you think but whats the Bible say vs the WT? If theyre right theyre right and i move onto another topic. But if not and i can offer my wife the chance to think outside the bubble im gonna take it....
I'm away from my materials, but think that when your wife researches this, she'll find that the Society explains that Jesus had a reconstructed body when he appeared at Luke 24, but that he later had a spirit body. It's difficult to say what makes the most sense, as how could a physical body go into heaven? Additionally, there are some accounts where the disciples do not recognize him and some where they do, implying that he was using different bodies.
See, you're making an assumption that "the Bible" says one thing clearly, and frankly that's not the case when we look critically at the collected writings that make up the Bible. How is it that so many branches of Christianity read the same material so differently? It's because scriptures can be found to support both sides of many issues. The resurrection stories are a mishmash of varying oral myths which were gathered into the gospels, which means this is not a good issue to analyze critically. This is why I'd rather see you pick targets for discussion more carefully.
Fir example: Kate/Sam suggested i use it as a fiekd service thing---which luck will have it my wife already thought was a good idea. (Thanks Katewild).
That's a fine setting for her to pick, but keep in mind that the more you bring this teaching into doubt, the harder it becomes for your wife to prepare and deliver her talk. I am finding it extremely difficult to prepare my own talks for the same reason. So it's good if your wife doesn't just take everything the Society writes at face value, and acknowledges that some things don't add up... but while she's preparing her talk, I think she mainly just can use your help in delivering the material that she is assigned to. It's not pleasant, perhaps, but it's more loving to help her than to make her job more difficult.
What is it you suggest? I form my own belief system then get my wife to adhere to that?
Not really. But how can you lead someone away from something if you don't know where you're going? Few JWs will be willing to follow someone out of the realm of certainty and become a wanderer in search of new beliefs.
That being said, personally I see a lot of marital troubles start when one mate starts to do lots of independent research, comes to their own conclusions, and then one day drops everything on their other mate. It seems that very few mates maintain open lines of communication during this period of learning TTATT because they feel they have to hide it. The end result is that one mate ends up alienating the other, and either the marriage breaks down over several years, or it takes several years for the other mate to come to share their beliefs.
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androb31
John 2: 18-21
… 18 The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
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DS211
Jgnat- good idea! I forgot about that rapture thing.
apog said: See, you're making an assumption that "the Bible" says one thing clearly, and frankly that's not the case when we look critically at the collected writings that make up the Bible.
I see your point definitely....im taking something and utilizing it to contradict them without first thinking ahead at how they may also use other scriptures.
apog then said: That being said, personally I see a lot of marital troubles start when one mate starts to do lots of independent research, comes to their own conclusions, and then one day drops everything on their other mate. It seems that very few mates maintain open lines of communication during this period of learning TTATT because they feel they have to hide it. The end result is that one mate ends up alienating the other, and either the marriage breaks down over several years, or it takes several years for the other mate to come to share their beliefs.
i have to say youve hits about 99% of my situation and thoughts with this post. I DO feel i have to hide things which i feel already makes me a target not to be trusted...i look guilty already. I dont want to drop the bomb...but im so far into it i find it difficult to just drop little hints. I also blame and am angry at the WT for this because they dont allow you to have freedom of speech without the possibility or fear of extreme negative response. This, i find is the foundation of why it is the awaken mate sees need to hide. I DO NOT want to live my life that way so i see why it is you brought out caution about listening to others on the forum too much.
Like you, i also find it miserable to do talks because of what i know. I dont want to feel the need to hide but i also cant drop the bomb. So i have to find a common ground for where i can maintain my sanity but be unselfish and try to understand more about how my wife feels.
With that i come back to Hassan techniques and jwfacts...and the need to compartmentalize my thoughts and set priorities.
And i understand what you mean now about knowing myself and knowing what direction i need to go....if im Lost why would i invite her to be lost also.
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steve2
Apog, you are far too sensible! Who can argue successfully with your impeccable reasoning? On the other hand, if the poster is kind of just seeing what answers he gets that's cool too.
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DS211
I think apog might be a shrink or marriage cult exit counselor.
steve im reading the God Delusion actually lol. I read that when im getting eye fatigued from "Why Evolution Is True".
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Apognophos
Heh, sorry to disappoint, but I'm just another one of those mock-experts on the Internet ;) I do think I may have missed my calling, because I find psychology very interesting, but in lieu of actually having gotten an education in the subject, I'm just a wannabe. But I've learned a lot from the stories I've read on here.
I'm usually more familiar with the members here, but you joined and introduced yourself while I was away, so I'm just looking back and acquainting myself with your story. I see that your wife is devout and also that you had one of those "just learning TTATT and can't hold it in" blowups at the beginning, so your wife already knows you have doubts.
It's not surprising when a wife becomes afraid to hear that her husband doesn't think it's the truth anymore, thinking he must be overtaken by Satan, when he hasn't made her a part of his learning process the whole time he's been exploring TTATT. That being said, re-examining one's beliefs is also a very personal process, and what leads one person to change their mind about the religion may not work at all for someone else. It's hard for me to say what I would do -- would I let my wife know that I was having doubts? Since I haven't been in that situation, I can't claim to know what the right approach is. There may simply be no way around a difficult period where your beliefs do not align with your mate's.
There could be some value in just focusing on being extra-attentive to your wife and encouraging her to cultivate interests outside Watchtower Land. After all, Witnesses fear that if they leave the religion, they'll be 'thrown outside the city gates' spiritually and have no solid foundation for their lives. Getting somebody out is not just about knocking down existing beliefs, it's about building up new ones, whether secular or religious.
Anyway, coming back to the immediate subject, you might want to just be helpful in a slightly befuddled way -- "Well, I guess this is how the Society explains it *shrug*".
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jgnat
Waaay back I decided no secrets. It helps that hubby knew what my beliefs were from the very beginning. It was a long, long road to earn his trust, to the point he will let me mark his magazines for him and ask me for a summary. Sometimes the summary is "It's all stupid."
I am sitting on the couch, we are watching Melbourne tennis on TV, and I'm on JWN.
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DS211
My wifes on the chair playing chess and im on JWN.....of course she doesnt knooooow that lol