Another thing to look up would be his names in the languages used. Jesus is a greek name. In hebrew it would be Yeshua I believe, which translated to english is Joshua. So documents written in greek then translated to english would say Jesus. If any ancient hebrew references, if translated to english would be Joshua or Yeshua.
Can you prove Jesus existed outside of Bible (so called) evidence?
by punkofnice 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
KateWild
Well weren't a lot of records destroyed in 70 CE, or is that a lie too?
I think there was a charasmatic man that was a Jewish Rabbi, who hated the hypocrisy of the Jewish religious leaders. I think he lived around 0-33CE.
Was he the promised Messiah? Did he perform micricles? Did he cheese off the Jewish Religious Leaders and get put to death? Does anyone have evidence?
I would be genuinely interested.
Kate xx
-
EndofMysteries
Actually that is true, anything in Jerusalem was pretty much destroyed. Speaking of which, that in itself leads credibility to the new testament as well.
Rome is what legalized christianity as long as they controlled it. In the new testament, Jesus foretold the destruction and leveling of the temple in Jerusalem. Now if Rome wrote and made up everything, they would have spun a good light on them as God's chosen for justice or punishment, instead of a 'digusting thing'.
-
OUTLAW
.
...........................................I Checked..This is for Real..
.......................................................
...OUTLAW -
Apognophos
If there were a miracle-working preacher claiming to be a king living in the Roman Empire, certainly there would be more than scant or nonexistent evidence in the records of the empire.
Yes to the miracle part, but was that part of the question? What if Jesus were just a preacher who thought he was the Son of God? Even the Bible says that people were up to their armpits in Messiah claimants at the time. Between the itinerant preachers and the rabble-rousers, I doubt anyone bothered to write a lot of their names down, they just executed them whenever they got too troublesome.
I think there was a charasmatic man that was a Jewish Rabbi, who hated the hypocrisy of the Jewish religious leaders. I think he lived around 0-33CE.
There was no 0 CE, Kate :-)
In the new testament, Jesus foretold the destruction and leveling of the temple in Jerusalem. Now if Rome wrote and made up everything, they would have spun a good light on them as God's chosen for justice or punishment, instead of a 'digusting thing'.
Sure, and if the Jews made it up, they would have phrased it the way they did. Your reference to the Romans is based on conspiracy theories which most scholars do not put credence in. Most secular people simply assume that the Christians inserted that prophecy into his mouth after 70 CE.
----------------
Here's my take on it: While I would very much like to have known what sort of person Jesus really was if he did exist, it's probably a moot point. You see, much of what Jesus supposedly said and did is likely fabricated. If you are not approaching the situation with an attitude of faith, then you subtract the miracles. You subtract the prophecies.
You are left with a few things: (1) some very generic sayings that could have come from rabbinical teachings, (2) a very idealized description of a man which feels so disconnected from real people that he could be just as easily invented as not, and (3) statements against the Law and the Pharisees which are very similar to something Paul might have said. In other words, they are statements that feel like a later interpretation of Jesus' life was placed into the gospels in order to guide the nascent religion.
So what do you have left if you subtract that? A few generic names of apostles who mostly seem to disappear after Jesus dies, and a bunch of place names, some of which may not have existed. So if Jesus was real, his true story has been coated with so many layers of accreted myths that it's about the same as if he never existed at all.
-
Phizzy
I showed a picture of Jesus that appeared on my toast this morning to Mrs Phizzy, and she said:
"I can't believe its not Buddha"
Demanding proof for the historicity of people that long ago is a difficult ask, but if the claims in the Gospels about him were half true, we should expect some confirmation form independent sources, I would have thought.
Believers desperately latch on to Josephus, one reference at least to Jesus which was in some copies has been proven to be fake, and his writings suffer worse than the N.T from the fact we do not have early manuscripts of what he wrote, I think the oldest we have is 10th or 11th Century, so not reliable as proof.
But why did Christians feel the need to fake proof ?
Because there isn't any.
-
EndofMysteries
Apognophos - One line of reasoning I have heard that seems to really make sense, is that if things about Jesus were fabricated, if his apostles/disciples made up those things, then they wouldn't have died for it. Let's say you decide to start a religion with one of your friends and you are going to pretend your friend is the son of God and he ends up getting killed for it, would you then die for what you knew wasn't real?
Other sources outside of the bible showed and confirmed his disciples were killed/martryed. That tells me they truly believed in historic Jesus that they knew first hand.
-
EndofMysteries
There is one other thing to consider.....WT literature printed with machine in the late 1800's/early 1900's, THOUSANDS, how many are left today of those originals? Many old teachings are just apostate lies according to modern day JW's. If in just 100 years when there were thousands, hundreds of thousands of prints, they can be practially dissappeared, then something that is 2,000 years old, that could only be copied/written by hand and only copied if they had the book/letter long enough, and surviving destruction of the entire city of Jerusalem, it doesn't seem so hard to wonder why so little has survived to this time.
-
EndofMysteries
I have a bible from 1900 that is falling apart, I can't see it's pages lasting another 100 years let alone 1800 years.
-
humbled
The NT Jesus (pre-WT)was a good teacher for me. The RCC had me in my early years and then in my latter 20s I just read the bible.At age 36 was baptised a JW.
I credit Jesus with setting me straight in a life derailed and finally getting me out of the cult. His teachings made me be honest with myself.
I don't care if he was divine or original or even a little delusional. If he was a wine drinking carpenter who loved Mary Magdalene especially-- that's okay,it's fine!
If I can't prove Jesus lived by citing written acounts, my own life experience and that of other foolish people prove the value of the "myth". We have let Jesus "live" by having our lives restored by the message of the gospel--in the various ways we have understood it.
...OUTLAW