Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler (page 6)

kaik

FusionTheisim, you generalize. Heroism is always on individual level, and the were JWs who were brave and JWs who were not when it came to face to face with totalitarian regimes like Nazism and Communism. There were catholic priests who stood up to Nazism and they were these who supported. However, talking about bravery of JWs without consideration that Rutherford was living in seclusion and security at San Diego and WT HQ in Brooklyn during WWII under protection of USA, is very ridiculous.

OrphanCrow

Finklestein: When this was done and it was found out that the JWS were Zionist supporters

I have to disagree with your statement. The JWs were not Zionists.

That is one of the major points that people forget - the JWs were formed as the result of a major flip in WT doctrine - possibly one of the most major in the history of the Watchtower Society. Under Russell, and leading up to 1925, the Bible Students were Zionists. Russell campaigned heavily for the return of the Jews to Palestine.

It was the shift to Rutherford's replacement theology that was responsible for the huge falling away that occurred in America the late 20s, and was also played out in Germany.

The JWs were not Zionists - their Palestine was out in California. Beth Sarim

The JWs in the camps and those working for the Nazis', shared the anti-semitic views of the Nazis.

That is why there are conflicting reports on the beliefs and practises of the JWs during WW2 and is the cause for confusion on some points. The split in the WT religion (over 75% of the Bible Students refused to follow Joe post-1925) and the emergence Joe's new religion was too recent for the differences to be readily apparent to the historians and researchers interested in the WTS history of WW2.

It is the rejection of Zionist theology that led to Rudolph Hess to say that the JW women who worked for him and his wife viewed the Jews as sinners and as deserving of the treatment as they were getting.

The Bible Students - that large percentage of WT followers that had remained true to Russell teachings and refused to convert to the Rutherford notion of how power was going to happen in Watchtower land - those are the ones who held fast to the Zionist view during WW2.

SimonSays

Luke 22:34

Context: Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial.

33. But he said to Him, "Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!" 34 And He said, "I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know me."

Matthew 26:34
"Truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

OrphanCrow

FusionThesim: I think anti-Watchtower bias and bitterness is showing through on some of these comments.

I disagree.

What I have said and presented is done with as least bias as possible. The bulk of my research is from scholarly accounts written by respected historians. What I am trying to do is add context and knowledge to the existing accounts that are used to document the WTS and the Jw involvement in a very important time in political world history.

I would love to report that the WTS' accounts are complete, true and honest. Unfortunately, I can't. It would be practising dishonest research practises and I am unable to adopt the stance of the uninformed and disinformed.

Yes, there were many heroes of all different kinds that had a role to play in the horrors of WW2. Not all of the stories are told - or understood.

Do we blame the Jewish victims in the Holocaust for practicing their faith or for speaking out against Hitler?
Most people usually consider them to be brave heroes.

Of course we don't blame the victims.

But, it is helpful to know what it is that happened so that religion isn't used as a scapegoat for political reasons. Sticking to the 'religious persecution' model is a method that relies on the emotional response of people - religious thinking obscures rationals facts.

Hitler's hatred of the Jews has commonly been understood and presented as a religious persecution. However, Hitler's hatred towards the Jews was a political hatred. The Jews in Germany controlled the leftwing party - the Bolsheviks. In 1925, when Mein Kampf was published, Hitler viewed the Bolsheviks as the largest threat to German Nationalism and his greatest political enemy. The Jews weren't his 'religious enemy' - the Jews were Hitler's political enemy.

Hitler believed that if the Bolsheviks/Jews, who has so recently took power in Russia following the bloodbath of the 1917 Revolution, gained power in Germany, that his beloved Germany would be eternally lost and ruined. Hitler was anti-communist, anti-Bolshevik, anti-Jew. Religion was an after effect, and consequently an identifying feature, of political positioning.

Finkelstein

I got that OrpahnCrow but you have to agree that the JWS under Rutherford weren't exactly showing signs of antisemitism, particularity when taking on the name of the Jewish god and refusing the cross, not calling their meeting places churches, being openly aggressive toward the Catholic church and so on.

There may have been a lesser Pro Zionist stance by Rutherford in comparison to Russell's day but there still other indicators present that the JWS were still indirectly Jewish sympathizers.

Are the JWs today actively antisemitic ?

Finkelstein

SimonSays says ....

You ignorant fool, the reality is the JWs stood up for the lies and corruption of the WTS and its own manipulation and exploitation of the bible thats all, in other words they stood up for the undeniably corruption of the WTS. by the pretentiousness of the that particular religious publishing house.

OrphanCrow

I got that OrpahnCrow but you have to agree that the JWS under Rutherford weren't exactly showing signs of antisemitism, particularity when taking on the name of the Jewish god and refusing the cross, not calling their meeting places churches, being openly aggressive toward the Catholic church and so on.

You have valid points but it is the attitude of the JWs, fostered by a leadership that made anti-semitic statements in their literature and sermons, that reveals their anti-semitic position. There are places online that discuss the anti-Jew statements of Rutherford in public, and there are places in the WT literature where it is obvious.

Here is an example of the attitude of the American JWs in 1941. From the convention report of The Children of The King convention held in St. Louis.

The author is describing the children who were seated on the grass of the arena for Rutherford's final address to them and after describing how the children all filed up on stage to receive a book from the man himself, it says this:

But now the man has gone, and you still look on - and are surprised to note that the 15,000 children are on the blond side - brown hair, yellow hair, light brown heads - only a few really black ones, and you don't quite understand why this is so, but it is. And you come away feeling refreshed as though you had seen something exceedingly rare in this evil day - something clean and honest and pure; something unforgettable - a promise of that sweetness and harmony which will be in God's kingdom.

Rutherford made many statements vocalizing his dislike of the Jews.

SimonSays

You ignorant fool, the reality is the JWs stood up for the lies and corruption of the WTS and its own manipulation and exploitation of the bible thats all, in other words they stood up for the undeniably corruption of the WTS. by the pretentiousness of the that particular religious publishing house.

What I am trying to do is add context and knowledge to the existing accounts that are used to document the WTS and the Jw involvement in a very important time in political world history.

I would love to report that the WTS' accounts are complete, true and honest. Unfortunately, I can't. It would be practising dishonest research practises and I am unable to adopt the stance of the uninformed and disinformed.

Finkelstein

Thanks OrpahCrow going to read up on that a bit more.

Rutherford made many statements vocalizing his dislike of the Jews

Rutherford always presented himself as an assertive power player in character, particularity when supporting his own acquired power .

And you come away feeling refreshed as though you had seen something exceedingly rare in this evil day - something clean and honest and pure; something unforgettable - a promise of that sweetness and harmony which will be in God's kingdom.

Sounds bit like a white Aryan racist, maybe propping up his own personal identity as a white pure Christian ?

Finkelstein

If anyone else has some writings from Rutherford particularly focused on his perceptions of the Jews please forward it. Would be interesting.

Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

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