Personally,I am a lot more cynical in general and cautious about bragging claims and boastful people in general.
If you were wrong about the truth, what else?
by ballistic 37 Replies latest jw friends
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Matty
Although it's true that I have become a very cynical person too, my real fear is that I will always be very susceptible to be manipulated by those I love and have an inordinate sense of duty and loyalty - this would counteract any natural caution I might have. I hate the idea of spending my entire life never letting anyone know the true me. I am like this with my family now, and so I see myself being vulnerable to this in future relationships.
I feel I have to agree with things I don't agree with, and accept others bad behaviour unquestioningly. I have never learnt to put my personal view forward effectively, or express how I really feel about anything important.
My self-reliance and self-confidence is poor, and I feel that I need constant reassurance that what I do is the right thing to do. It's no wonder a lot of people here are confused over what is truly right and what is truly wrong, it's not something we ever needed to decide for ourselves.
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Teirce
religio Abaddonae repercutio. I've also noticed that I've become sometimes unbearably persistent in finding out what the true spin is on anything that arises. My fiance has jested that I'm insane to be so distrustful and cynical, because I weigh out every gnat and grain of cumin, as it were, to exploring the motives behind this or that interesting occurance which appears to have changed the fortunes for one or another party. I can't just trust that such things happen without clandestine motive, and it gets on her nerves sometimes. It's also made it difficult to buy-in to a lot of hype that surrounds politics, advertising, entertainment. And for this chronic lack of excitement, this blank stare which is a slate upon which verifyable actions may be writ, that also gets on her nerves. Conversely, I value in her an inexpressible appreciation for a certain principle of this universe, that if one sends forth their vital efforts with the correct form of generosity, those efforts will return to them ten-fold, in ten ways other than that which was sowed. This was difficult for me to grasp as an early ex-JW; being in financial concerns and worried only to get the feet planted.
I think the best mouthwash for the JW's strains on ethics, morals, trust and loyalty is to dig into the Classics from which at least Paul liberally borrowed.
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Introspection
I haven't read through every message in this thread, but did scan it and if any of this is a repeat I will atleast make it brief and direct.
Several have mentioned trust issues. I think this is very significant, because your own motives in trying to figure out what is true is atleast colored by this defense mechanism. That's fine to have, except you might actually shield yourself from finding the truth just as you did with witness doctrines, the only difference is that you discount rather than affirm a position in any given issue.
Instead of asking if you were wrong about this or that, I think the big question is 'Is my thinking wrong?' If you never look at your own mind how can you trust it to come to any accurate conclusions? Yet otherwise intelligent people are often very subjective in their analysis of what's true, it is rather like a powerful computer running a sophisticated program that hasn't been debugged.
To me being careful in the defensive sense serves no useful purpose in terms of determining what is true and, even in terms of mental health. If you want to see things clearly for what they are, you need to drop your assumptions, including the assumption that there is a good chance it's going to hurt you or that people are out to deceive you. Of course, for this to be useful in any sense you have to maintain the attitude, to continue to question instead of using it for a brief time and then settling into the belief that 'I know what's true now'. As we know, the reason some people deceive others is simply ignorance, and in that case there is no conscious intent to deceive, they basically don't know any better. But what it comes down to is that even if you identify the error in everyone else's thinking, if you never look at your own then you're no better off than if you are completely ignorant. I maintain that the most truthful and honest position is one of 'I don't know.' The typical skeptical attitude seems to be focused on the source of the information rather than the one that has to interpret it, namely yourself. Even if you have acquired a lot of knowledge and is a pretty smart guy, ultimately that information is only relative, and should be treated as such. Atleast some people who believe in completely objective knowledge say that you have to start here, too. After all, if you start anywhere else aren't you just really hiding behind an assumption, a nice idea, a belief that makes you feel better?
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waiting
Howdy Intro,
Nice to see your post - been a while?
I maintain that the most truthful and honest position is one of 'I don't know.'
That would be my personal mental/emotional position (I'll leave physical positions out of this). I readily admit I don't know all the answers.....I don't even know all the questions.....and I certainly don't know the agendas behind what some people (jw, xjw, political, religious, corporations) are telling me.It takes time and effort to base a knowledgeable guess.....and then it's pretty much that, even if grounded in facts. Why? Because I would venture that no one ever knows all the facts or agendas.
If we're really good, imho, we stay open to new ideas and changes.
On H20 about 2 yrs ago, there was a brilliant speech by a member of British Parliment (I think). In it, he said that any person who joins ANY organization should realize that it's a short term committment to that original organization - the average life of the original ideals would be approximately 5 years.
Why? Because during that time, the organization has to evolve to stay alive. What organizational ideals you had to begin with will have changed - and you must be prepared to change or leave.
Does anyone have the long (non-paraphrased) copy of this? Several people have asked me for it - but I, alas, didn't save it.Shut up, Carmel.
waiting
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Introspection
Hi Waiting,
On H20 about 2 yrs ago, there was a brilliant speech by a member of British Parliment (I think). In it, he said that any person who joins ANY organization should realize that it's a short term committment to that original organization - the average life of the original ideals would be approximately 5 years.
Good point here, although I would point out that this is probably more applicable to heirarchical organizations. There are organizations where there is a general consensus regarding the ideals they hold, (not only at the outset either) and sometimes it's kind of a matter of the details not being important. Of course, these are usually relatively small. Then again, if you recognize that the ideals you hold are most important, (one of them could be this open attitude that you've described) then the survival of the organization wouldn't be such a big deal, but only in so far as it supports those ideals.Why? Because during that time, the organization has to evolve to stay alive. What organizational ideals you had to begin with will have changed - and you must be prepared to change or leave.
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Abaddon
Teirce; my Latin is crap; do you mean 'Abaddon (as in me) will return to the religious life', or 'The religious life destroys again'?
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ballistic
This is an old thread which I never returned comments on when I read it, but I did find everyones comments interesting. I also agreed with Intro and Waiting and found Teirces comments fascinating.
All I can say in return is that it's not entirely that I distrust information or motives but a general feeling that I am still on "the path" to learning and what I learn tomorrow could wipe away all of my assumptions today.
I guess leaving the witnesses actually has an unexpected humbling effect. You start to learn... that you didn't know everything.