Sauv... " no one is born an atheist"......Assumes there would be a choice at birth, what a child requires.. even demands at birth , is to breath , suckle , be warm and survive if any of these are lacking is god going to intervene ?. Why did you make that statement ? what is its relevency? If the child was born into a non deist/ theist existence with no concept of god whatsoever it would grow into a person with no belief at all of such a concept, unless you believe that whatever so called god would reveal itself by way of a miracle to demand servitude!!. How likely is that?...
Talking with a nonbeliever...
by suavojr 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Phizzy
Dear Sauvojr, there are so many Logical Fallacies in your O.P that I would ask you to please read JGnats thread on L.F's, and to look up what they are and how they are mis-used.
Perhaps then you could pose some questions worth answering.
Thanks.
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punkofnice
Ron Rhodes' questions are so flawed with logical fallacies it's embarrassing. His arguments are laughable.
should I continue to believe in a God or not?
You must take your own path. Decide for yourself.
I don't know if I'm an atheist, agnostic or whatever, I simply cannot find any evidence for believing in god anymore. If god exists that creature's done a pretty good job of keeping it's identity hidden.
TBH, I think belief in god is just delusion.
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DeWandelaar
You say children are not born atheists... but are they borne theists then? They are born and at that point have absolutely no clue... so they get trained to learn whatever the parents are willing to learn. That is where it starts. So... it is all based on references.
When it comes to religion and/or God there are too many assumptions... and assumptions can never be seen as total proof... not even likely proof.
If God is justice then he would never allow (or himself being able) to anihilate the people that are living now. He can not in any way blame people for not believing him. There are simply too many loose ends.
So ... even IF Gods exists, why would he choose for the hard way? And if he wants to be known as a loving God... Why doesn't he do his utmost best to BE loved? It is like an abusive father who kicks te crap out of his kids and demands them to love him... see what I mean?
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cantleave
If you make a decision to believe in god, which one? What evidence is there for Jesus as opposed to Thor, Zeus or Invisble Pink Unicorn?
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punkofnice
“A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage.”
Suppose … I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you’d want to check it out, see for yourself….
“Show me,” you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle—but no dragon.
“Where’s the dragon?” you ask.
“Oh, she’s right here,” I reply, waving vaguely. “I neglected to mention that she’s an invisible dragon.”
You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon’s footprints.
“Good idea,” I say, “but this dragon floats in the air.”
Then you’ll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.
“Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless.”
You’ll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.
“Good idea, except she’s an incorporeal dragon and the paint won’t stick.”
And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work.
Now, what’s the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there’s no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it is true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I’m asking you do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
The only thing you’ve really learned from my insistence that there’s a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You’d wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I’ve seriously underestimated human fallibility….
Now another scenario: Suppose it’s not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you’re pretty sure don’t know each other, all tell you they have dragons in their garages—but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we’re disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I’d rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren’t myths after all…
Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they’re never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself: On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon’s fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such “evidence”—no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it—is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.
—Carl Sagan
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jgnat
You lost me at "no-one is born an athiest". I suggest first disentangling your personal morality from objective truths. It's one question at a time and it cannot be done wholistically. Not that personal morals are wrong. We need them as a framework for our decisions.
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suavojr
Thank you all for your great replies!
My statement about “No one is born an atheist. “was made by Ron Rhodes.
Oh Gawd, you said:
1. The same response could be used both ways. Although the premise itself is false.
Very true, all believers have is simply assumptions and the idea of a God that has changed throughout the ages and it is still evolving in the hearts and mind of the people who choose to believe.
Thank you for confirming that I will survive the journey. Right now in my life it is hard that I cannot be true to myself in front of my wife and family, but I need to keep digging and find the answer that is true to me. I just don’t buy the idea of a God that takes millions of years to fix things or even thousands of years - if you think like a creationist-
The road is steep and the price I must pay is high, but the journey will lead me to the freedom that I want!
Thank you cantleave and punkofnice for your input as well.
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suavojr
We can’t force people to be/do good
We can’t magically eradicate all sickness
We can’t stay young a longer time
We can’t end wars, rape, murder, famines, etc.
The human race came up with the idea of a God to fix all the above issues just mentioned, but I frankly have not read or heard of any solutions from people like the late Hitchens, Carl Sagan, Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc…
Now, do you think that the human race will be able to fix most of the problems it faces? Since the proof for a God is as close as to a flying teapot, what solutions can nonbelievers bring to the table?
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punkofnice
The human race came up with the idea of a God to fix all the above issues just mentioned, but I frankly have not read or heard of any solutions from people like the late Hitchens, Carl Sagan, Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc…
I don't think they set out to solve anything but I thank them for their logic in ridding me of religion.
Now, do you think that the human race will be able to fix most of the problems it faces? Since the proof for a God is as close as to a flying teapot, what solutions can nonbelievers bring to the table?
I wouldn't know....my guess is 'NO!'
Let's just say that believers have bought nothing to the table either...apart from causing wars and hatred.
The human race will cease to exist. We will never know because we'll be long dead.