Talking with a nonbeliever...

by suavojr 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Cofty you must believe that knowledge is finite then in that case, if the gaps are ever shrinking. The time will come when all things are known if this is a linier progression as implied. I doubt it is that simple somehow.

    However my point is that science won’t explain science as it’s predicated on what already exists from a starting point beyond which it’s not science anymore if science is itself considered something that can be comprehended. Increasingly in my view, science is showing up gaps in comprehension as opposed to increasingly illuminating them. Some of these gaps go by the name science but they are a different beast entirely as they cannot be understood cognitively, rather interpreted. Other gaps don’t even get into what can be called science at all because they represent the breakdown of what is apparently known and called physics. Singularities represent one example. Science can only be done at all with things that already exist but the foundation for existence itself is another matter entirely. Two logical options are ever present; an infinity of steps going back forever which challenges the common sense view of time to breaking point, or something from something that doesn’t exist because it is nothing. Both are beyond science and even arguable reason. Good luck with the shrinking gaps but there will always be more than enough room for a god is one want to put it in, a seemingly infinite amount of room in fact.

  • cofty
    cofty

    science won’t explain science as it’s predicated on what already exists from a starting point beyond which it’s not science anymore if science is itself considered something that can be comprehended - Seraphim23

    I have not a clue what you just said. I doubt if you do either. How hard do you have to try to be that convoluted?

    Increasingly in my view, science is showing up gaps in comprehension as opposed to increasingly illuminating them

    Then you obviously don't read science.

    Here is a really simple suggestion. Go to Facebook and put "I Fucking Love Science" in the search box. "Like" the page and read the posts that appear on your wall every day along with weekly summaries of what has been discovered in the past 7 days.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    marked

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    suavojr In my search for the truth and the burning desire to become free from all forms of dogma and wishful thinking. I have approached my first crossroads in my life, should I continue to believe in a God or not?

    The reason for your uncertainty regarding god, is that there is not a shred of evidence that such a being exists. The fact that millions of people cling to the hope that such a being exists is sad. Their hope is evidence only of mass delusion. If a being almighty enough to create the universe existed, you would not be asking.

    If you have to ask whether you should continue to believe in god or not, you have answered your own question. You know with certainty that you exist; that president Barack Obama exists; that animals exist. You know that Elvis Presley did but doesn't now. Just use the same power of reasoning to confirm the existence anything else.

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Seraph its counter productive to force a discussion into the realms beyond our cognitive understanding ie the limits of our physical brain . Yes it is frustrating but a small engine no matter how much it revves its little head off will never be a Ferrari. And of course science can only study/ question that which exists but it can create( bring into being)things which would not have existed E.g cloned animals , which really flies in the face of god I.M.O So bravo science it is the future of mankind if used to our advantage .God will increasingly become a silly irrelevance.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Galaxie it may not be the limits of the brain, in that a bigger one might be better but of cognition and understanding itself. Your view that god will become a silly irrelevance is naïve in my view because of the ideas philosophical underpinnings. It actually works quite well as an idea where pure reason fails because pure reason becomes increasingly circular the deeper it attempts to go in answering questions of a profound nature. This fact won’t change no matter how far science progresses, for science is based on that which is understood without interpretation. Increasingly however it requires interpretation which is an issue for science as it shows it has an innate limitation. This gap is not of the same order as filling in previously unknown intermediate parts of natural processes in a formal way that were previously put down to an intelligent being moving stings invisibly. It is way more fundamental than that because it’s about valid questions regarding the underpinnings of science and the scientific method itself.

    Humans and all intelligent life have a finite amount of time in this universe and science no matter how good will, or can prevent this fact. In the meantime it won’t be science that solves our human issues but the human heart because science cannot prevent greed, cruelty or even tyranny. These things will show the limits of science as well. Science is the future of mankind IF…….but what about freedom to do good or bad?

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Seraph, I know you'll understand the heart is a muscle. Science uses brain power. When was the last time you heard of a muscle finding a cure for disease?.

    When did god ever cure a disease (apart from silly stories) So he or it is already irrelevant on that score. Is that me being naive?

    Reasoning is of course a progressive process, why should it ever fail? By way of reasoning we contribute to this forum!

    Finite time ..? Yes but within those immense constraints shouldn't we allow science and emotions to work together for the good of mankind, surely we have that amount of cognitive capacity . Its not all doom and gloom, lets find some happiness our head and ' heart ' can work together towards that goal. It doesn't have to be so complicated.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Well we have different viewpoints galaxie. Some silly stories actually do happen but I understand that my words are anecdotal and of no use to many.

  • suavojr
    suavojr

    Seraphim23This fact won’t change no matter how far science progresses, for science is based on that which is understood without interpretation.

    How about faith being based on what is a personal interpretation of writings from antiquity. Currently we cannot find any evidence for supporting such miracles or fulfilled prophecies. What benefits has religion given to our modern day society?

    Increasingly however it requires interpretation which is an issue for science as it shows it has an innate limitation.

    Science is the journey of the unknown and religion is the haughtiness of claiming to have no limitations in knowledge.

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