I think a lot of jws would believe they were under demon attack if they awoke in heaven after death.
What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?
by Cold Steel 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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RottenRiley
F.W., I agree with you that Jehovah's Witnesses don't know the Christ of the Bibles are do they believe in the Jesus Christ and Good News taugth by the Apostles. Their claim is "If I die, I am a Christian because I believed in Jesus Christ" but they don't believe in Jesus Christ do they? The classic fall-back on 1 John 5:1-4 can easily be swung back to Matthew's account of Jesus Christ warning of the Religious leaders in the Future and how they would act. 7:1- end). Who is more like Jesus Christ's example set in the first part of Matthew 7? When I take my Mom to Chemo and my COBE and Elderette familes sit on their ass or spin around in Field Circus, who are they really worshiping? I can't thank our Lord enough for showing me how corrupt the Congregations truly are, often very few JWs were decent apologist and did not even read their own magazines they hipocritically offered up in Field Service, if they are too busy watching Jersey Shore, New Girl, Dexter and other R and MA shows why should we waste our time reading their trash?
New Living Translation
Do Not Judge Others
1“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2For you will be treated as you treat others. a The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. b. (Tony Morris claims he is a "Shoe Maker, he sizes up each person).
3“And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye c when you have a log in your own? 4How can you think of saying to your friend, d ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye?5Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.
6“Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. e Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you.
Effective Prayer
7“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. (JWs are content not seeking for truth because they claim they foudn it, it's the honest person who realizes that Truth is a life long endeavour, not one that knocks on your front door by Crazy Carline) Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
9“You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him. (JWs I know treat their parents like trash, how are they showing they love Jesus Christ?)
The Golden Rule
12“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.
The Narrow Gate
13“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell f is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
The Tree and Its Fruit
15“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire.20Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
True Disciples
21“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
(How many JWs really obey the Golden Rule and show deep love for all mankind, the 99.999999% I know did not even know their next door neighbors, they hid from everyone and often ignored their own brothers, using 1 John 5:1-4 is not a option because Jesus Christ said he will deny they for disobedience and no excuses are allowed!)
Building on a Solid Foundation
24“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. 26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29for he taught with real authority—quite unlike their teachers of religious law.
Footnotes:
a 7:2a Or For God will judge you as you judge others.
b 7:2b Or The measure you give will be the measure you get back.
c 7:3 Greek your brother’s eye; also in 7:5.
d 7:4 Greek your brother.
e 7:6 Greek Don’t give the sacred to dogs.
f 7:13 Greek The road that leads to destruction."If a JW does remain awake after death, he is not going to be in heaven. They have denied Christ and his message.
If they DID for some reason come awake after their physical death, they would probably start looking for their book bag.
They would need to check their literature, and see what they believe about what they are experiencing."
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Cold Steel- you criticize Jehovah's Witnesses for their beliefs...you are a Mormon. You seem to not realize you believe in fictions just as absurd and unprovable as the JWs- yet you stand here in judgment of them. On what basis?
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"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe."
- Carl Sagan.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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"The freest anyone ever is occurs when they care enough about their integrity to search for the truth.
The most enslaved anyone ever is occurs when they are constrained enough to announce they've found the truth and, to protect their pride, stop the search." -unknown
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at least atheists and others freely admit that certain matters do not have an answer, but rather than believe in fairy tales, they rely on evidence to formulate opinions, and reserve themselves until evidence proves their position wrong. The gullibly religious seem to latch onto any nonsense that makes them feel good-no evidence required-while condemning other gullibly religious people who believe in a different color of unprovable, but equally laughable, set of absurdities.
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your self-assured arrogance is astounding.
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FlyingHighNow
So if this happened, how do you think most Jehovah’s Witnesses would react, seeing that this, one of their premier doctrines, was false? How would you react? Would most Jehovah’s Witnesses despair or would they continue to maintain their beliefs in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?
Honestly, from what I've read, including books about near death experiences and death bed visions by Melvin Morse MD, an Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington, JWs are just going to be happy. After you die, there's no wondering. I highly recommend reading Melvin Morse's books. He was once a huge skeptic about NDEs, believing the same kind of things that JWs teach about NDEs. I've read some other interesting books on the subject.
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FlyingHighNow
Cold Steel, I've sent you a PM.
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startingover
ADCMS, great quotes!
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Cold Steel
Qcmbr: How do you react...when we show you Mormon lies, logic errors, immorality and proof of the fraudulent nature of the Book of Mormon?
Cofty: He sticks his fingers in his ears, sings lalalalala, and types lots of text that includes the oxymoron "mormon scholars..."
That’s about it, only I sing “Wake Up, Little Suzie” really loud.
AndDon’tCallMeShirley: ....you criticize Jehovah's Witnesses for their beliefs...you are a Mormon. You seem to not realize you believe in fictions just as absurd and unprovable as the Jehovah’s Witnesses—yet you stand here in judgment of them. On what basis?
So...am I the only critic here? Actually, it seems most of the threads on this board criticize the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And the atheists here are the most critical of everyone.
But though my beliefs differ from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, my primary criticisms deal with their policies. But many of my threads are on scriptural topics, like the state of the dead, prophecy, the fall of man, the atonement, the Second Coming and everyone’s favorite, the battle of Armageddon. So it gets down to the “Two Es” — exegeses and eschatology. To the atheists, this is all nitpicking since, to them, one religious doctrine is as ridiculous as another.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe, as I understand it, that when one dies, he or she ceases to exist, as if they never existed. They also teach that the wicked will be resurrected, judged, then obliterated, whilst the righteous are resurrected as either spirits or as immortal humans, like Adam and Eve.
At least atheists and others freely admit that certain matters do not have an answer, but rather than believe in fairy tales, they rely on evidence to formulate opinions, and reserve themselves until evidence proves their position wrong. The gullibly religious seem to latch onto any nonsense that makes them feel good—no evidence required—while condemning other gullibly religious people who believe in a different color of unprovable, but equally laughable, set of absurdities.
Your self-assured arrogance is astounding.
My greatest problem with atheists is their stunning hypocrisy and unyielding inability to see what they accuse others of in themselves. My God, you should see yourself from my side of the computer screen! Talk about arrogance! You speak as though science has settled every problem and has slammed the door shut once and for all without question on every religion and religious experience in the history of mankind—all the while conveniently overlooking its own flawed, narrow and sordid past with an astonishing presumptuousness that has existed on the parts of pseudo-intellectuals going all the way back to the ancient Greek philosophers and before. And you have the audacity to call me arrogant?
I’ve never claimed that religion has all the answers, but it’s a belief system in many ways just as science is. For generations scientists and humanists of all stripes have had their own little cliques in which those outside of their belief systems were ridiculed and, if possible, excluded from their ranks. Look at those who were derided for their belief in continental drift (which anyone with a global map could figure out) and their questioning of the scientifically cherished Siberian Land Bridge theory, which excluded every piece of evidence that backed up the claims of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. So please don’t tell me how impartial, dispassionate and fair science is and how narrow minded and bigoted religion is. You may say you don’t believe in God nor revealed religion, but to say you know there’s no validity to it is, itself, the basest of belief systems.
RottenRiley: Jehovah's Witnesses don't know the Christ of the Bibles are do they believe in the Jesus Christ and Good News taught by the Apostles. Their claim is "If I die, I am a Christian because I believed in Jesus Christ" but they don't believe in Jesus Christ do they?
They say they do, but I don’t believe people are saved or damned on just what they believe. John writes:
We see here not just an emphasis on believing in Christ, but in living his commandments. The one aspect of religion that bothers me the most is the exclusivity of sects and religions that damn, or condemn, everyone but themselves. If Christianity is to reflect the love of God and the brotherhood of men, then all the condemnation to hell or destruction has to give way to acknowledging God as loving, just and merciful. Jehovah will destroy everyone but his witnesses, we’re told, or, if we believe the Seventh Day Adventists, anyone who does not embrace seventh-day worship. In my view, if religions would try to be more inclusive, not of the wicked, but of those who truly love and revere both the Father and the Son, they would be on the right track.
Based on my reading of near death experiences, and the writings of the New Testament and other writings of its time, I couldn’t help but wonder what the reaction of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists (or atheists) would be to be cut off in this life, only to find themselves continuing in existence in real time?
When you were an active JW, or if you’re presently a believing JW, what would be your reaction to discovering, suddenly, that the spirit lives on? And what would happen if a Jehovah’s Witness were to have a near death experience, recover and tell it to friends or the elders in their congregations? Have such experiences ever been written about in WTBTS publications?
My dad told us before he died that he had seen and spoken to his mother (and he wasn’t an overly religious type, playing his religion very close to the vest). And my maternal grandfather also said, prior to his death, that he had seen and spoken to friends and family, including his mother and father). I don’t know just what his religious views were exactly when he passed, but he had been attending a Kingdom Hall every Wednesday evening, dressing up for it and taking his Bible. Just moments before he died, he raised up on his left elbow and pointed with his right finger towards the edge of his bed, as if whoever he was looking at was/were standing above the floor. He was very emphatic, but wasn’t able to say anything. But I take such things seriously.
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adamah
FHN said- Honestly, from what I've read, including books about near death experiences and death bed visions by Melvin Morse MD, an Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington, JWs are just going to be happy. After you die, there's no wondering. I highly recommend reading Melvin Morse's books. He was once a huge skeptic about NDEs, believing the same kind of things that JWs teach about NDEs. I've read some other interesting books on the subject.
Yeah, pediatrician Melvin Morse apparently has some emotional issues and highly-suspect motives, apparently out to use his past credentials as a doctor to sell books (which ex-door-to-door book and magazine pushers should understand). His license to practice medicine has been suspended after he was accused of "waterboarding" his wife's children (four counts of child endangerment, AKA child abuse). Marvin's case is currently being heard in court:
http://nhne-pulse.org/dr-melvin-morse-arrested/
Here's his mumbo-jumbo website:
http://spiritualscientific.com/
Hey, he's been on Oprah: nuff said?
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adamah
Cold Steel said- At one time, no one believed in germs; and when they couldn't deny it, they argued they were far too small to harm the human body. People were booted out of the medical profession for requiring their hospital staff to wash their hands!
Yeah, you know who ELSE poo-poohed the value of washing hands (as well as standard sanitary practices like washing dishes/pots/pans, utensils)? Jesus.
You know who else didn't believe in germs, either? Jesus thought he was curing via forgiveness of sins, since Jesus lived in the age LONG before Pasteur's 'germ theory of disease', and that's what all humans believed.
The thing is, the person who makes the claim of something existing has to PROVE it's existence. In Pasteur's case, he was able to tell skeptics to look into his microscope and see the wiggly things which were taken from the sick, and the wiggly things could be administered to the healthy and they'd become ill, too. Louis had tangible evidence, AKA PROOF. His work lead to development of antibiotics, which have cured literally hundreds of million-fold more disease than Jesus could dream of healing.
Cold Steel said- Much of astrophysics today is founded on a belief in dark matter, though evidence that it exists is sadly lacking. The same thing used to be true of black holes. Even though they were theoretically possible, Stephen Hawking said years ago, he doubted whether any would be found. Before the ink was dry, however, astronomers had begun to find them; not that they actually saw them, but they were able to prove they existed and determine where they were. Now we know they're all over the place.
Einstein doubted black holes existed (even though his theory of relativity predicted their existence). Astronomers have PROOF they exist now, so black holes are no longer hypothesized to exist, but are PROVEN to exist.
So when you say this:
Cold Steel said- To say there is no evidence of God, or a Creator, is a pretty huge leap.
See what you did there? You had the concept with Pasteur and Hawking, but then you forgot it when it came to God. YOU claim God exists, so YOU have to present existence of God to convince skeptics. It's called "burden of proof", and believers bear it if they claim God exists.
Until then, God concept remains an unproven hypothesis (and that's being generous, since evolution explains life much more effectively than "God Dun It!" does).
Cold Steel said- And the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know.
No, that's a mindless nonsensical meme.
The more we learn, the more we know.
Granted, each new discovery raises two more exciting questions, but it's simply absurd to deny the advancement of human knowledge.
Cold Steel said- The complexity of genetic codes, order and beauty of the universe, the witnesses throughout time, many of the prophets have stated that all things denote there is a God.
That's an "appeal to personal incredulity", saying that your personal ignorance of the topics is somehow the benchmark by which everyone should decide on God. Narcissistic much? Paul used that argument with the Greeks 2,000 yrs ago, and it didn't work on them to convince them of proof of God's existence. You can't offer anything better after 2,000 yrs practice? Given the advancement of knowledge in the past 2,000 yrs, it's not getting any more convincing with the passage of time.
Cold Steel said- I've found that many of the near death experiences I've read to be very compelling, regardless of their religious and cultural backgrounds.
If there's one uncontested finding on NDEs amongst NDE researchers, it's that people see the Gods of their personal beliefs, i.e. Hindus see Shiva, Islamists see Allah, Shintoists see their deities, etc. Is everyone right, or do people see what they want to see?
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cofty
I suppose anybody who believes the risible nonsense that comes from the Mormon popes at Salt Lake City is bound to dismiss science as just an other belief system.
