scotoma - what is the point of what you are saying - that bible prophecy is correct? Am I right in thinking the prophecy to which you are referring is some monumental declaration of peace followed by a cataclysmic reversal? You also seemed preoccupied with this event occurring this year? Am I correct?
Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty
by scotoma 26 Replies latest jw friends
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metatron
I see the situation as very similar to what happened to South Africa.
There may be a lot of Afrikaners who wish they could go back in time and set up a canton-style sort of government in which one or two states would have a majority white population - but that never happened.
In regard to Israel, setting up separate Jewish and Palestinian states makes sense but that doesn't mean it will ever happen. I see a one state solution as more likely because it is a default position that the country could slip into - like South Africa.
The ultra-orthodox fanatics are growing rapidly and they often refuse to fight - or even hold jobs! Incredible as it may sound now, I can foresee a shift away from these horrid people - perhaps involving an alliance between Palestinians and secular Israelis.
metatron
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scotoma
Frazzled,
The whole concept of prophecy is disturbing to ex JW’s. After all it was prophecy that probably
hooked them in the first place. The entire foundation of JW’s is rooted in the belief that they are
the ones that God is using to serve the prophetic role. There is an ever present fear about the
horrible things that are about to take place. The sense of futility about engaging in any of the
normal activities of life drove them to a frenzied pace of activity that they felt was a requirement
for divine protection. So the mere suggestion that some prophecy is true stirs the fear that
whatever life they have tried to salvage might have to be put on hold again. That would be
unbearable. Prophecy doesn’t disturb me because I an atheist.I arrived at the atheist position directly without complicated philosophical argumentation. .
Suppose some entity appeared to me and claimed to be the Top God. How could such a God even
expect me to believe him. What could such an entity do to prove to me they are omniscient and
omnipotent and had no beginning. To verify those claims I would also need to be omniscient,
omnipotent and everlasting. For that matter I could never even verify my own omniscience (if I
were) since I could only know what I know and could not know what I don’t know.The next step is to look for “any kind” of evidence that there are even entities with extraordinary
powers that would at least evoke trust in their benevolence. For instance what would be so hard
for someone less than almighty to restore a few old people to their youth. While not proving they
were God Almighty such an entity would be God-Enough for me to want to become better
acquainted and perhaps even hang out. There are a lot of spectacular things that some being
somewhere might be able to do that would lure humans into worship. So far there has been
nothing spectacular.So what should I do with the Bible? Should I throw the scriptures out with God? Most people
make that choice. It is “a choice” but not necessarily the only choice. Even evolution improvises
on what has been useful. Evolution is NOT revolution. Usually evolution doesn’t start from
scratch. Evolution continues from wherever it is. Evolution will keep vestigial organs around
and adapt them to a new function. From this orientation could there be something of value to
scripture? The only way to know is to form a working hypothesis that presumes some utility. So,
I choose to see if there is some salvageable aspect of the Bible.Setti, has been scanning the radio signals coming to the earth in search of evidence that someone
out there might be trying to contact us. A similar effort has recently been attempted at searching
the internet for traces of time travelers through references to things that didn’t happen yet. Don’t
judge these efforts based on the negative results. They are appropriate questions for scientific
inquiry. They begin as What-If propositions or working hypotheses. So when it comes to the
Bible my working hypothesis is: What if an advanced civilization was trying to preserve a
promising species of intelligent beings on a planet, perhaps like humans on earth. Their motive
wouldn’t be for exploitation but simply preservation. In our current state we have discovered
indigenous populations in various parts of the world and have pursued a pattern of exploitation
by turning people into slaves and confiscating their resources. Trying to leap-frog these cultures
into a “modern” world has had tragic consequences.My hypothesis is that if there were some “Older Brother” planets they might be observing the
progress of civilizations like ours and nudge them in the direction of survival. The goal would be
to have a subtle influence which means to allow things to develop over time with overt
interference only exercised at a point that would threaten survival. The most effective minimal
way of influence would probably be through sacred texts. Such texts would have to be put
together early in the game to give them sacred status in the eyes of a significant population.
I see possibilities that the Bible could be such a text. Most of the Bible is junk for us today.
But it would have to be functional to the people that would faithfully copy it for thousands of
years. Such a text would not be the place to reveal scientific knowledge. It could be dangerous
to accelerate the natural process of discovering things.The Bible seems to address the most serious problem with any life form. You can’t have life
without a self. Life is “self-moving”, “self-sustaining”, “self-directing” and “self-orienting”.
Life is the consequence of establishing a circular process that replicates by incorporating
chemicals from the environment. Metabolism eventually forms a boundary or “cell-wall”.
That’s the start of the process that leads to complicated organisms. Without this boundary life
would have very little integrity. The trouble with “boundary” is that it leads to competition for
life sustaining chemicals. Competition then leads to conflict. At the point where social
organizations of sentient beings arise the conflict has to give way to cooperation for survival of
everyone. In simple terms the Bible addresses the problem of warfare.The Old Testament was necessary to form a nation that could be slowly prepared for the
dissolution of nationhood. The Messiah was anticipated as a protector of the nation of Israel.
Jesus showed up at an opportune moment. Empires reached the point where they could rearrange
boundary any way they desired.. Nations could not resist the penetration of empires like Rome.
The new boundary needed to be ideological. Not an ideology that emerged from geography
bound cultures that were destined to fight to maintain their physical boundaries but an ideology
of cooperation and tolerance.Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that avoid involvement in the divisive politics and
nationalism that govern the world. While not doing so perfectly they at least have actually turned
their swords into plowshares and don’t engage in war and would rather die than kill. To me this
is very strange and noteworthy. The prophecies in the Bible point to a final confrontation on the
earth. Not a confrontation between good and evil but between two ideologies that are both evil.
One is collective and totalitarian and the other is based on laissez-faire greed. Both are intent on
ruling the world. Daniel describes the pre-armageddon/interference tribulation as a battle
between the King of the North and the King of the South. Revelation describes this struggle as
Babylon the Great (King of the South) trying to ride the totalitarian Wild Beast eventually ending
in Babylon the Greats destruction.At the point where these entities would practically destroy each other the Kingdom of the Sky
will finally step in and set up good government based on cooperation. Following this line of
thought over the past 30 years I have been able to arrive at a coherent explanation for most Bible
prophecy.
These Big Brother protectors of sentient life in the universe don’t have to be omniscient to know
the probable development of geopolitics. They could look at the geographical structure of
oceans, continents, and climate and be able to do some sophisticated statistical correlational
analysis and be able to make the kind of predictions you see in the Bible. These Big Brothers
have no doubt had experience with millions of planets and have an extensive database for their
predictions.These Big Brother protectors don’t have to be omnipotent to dominate the armies of this planet.
There are credible reports of UFO’s appearing at Missile installations and disabling them.Metatron knows more about this then I do.
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Frazzled UBM
Wow scotoma - thanks for answering my question. I could tell you had an agenda but I had no idea it would be quite so 'out there' (no pun intended). I could tell you had an agenda because of how hard you were working to shoe-horn events into your preconceived theory. I can tell you based on long years of familiarity with the region that your peace treaty theory is extremely far-fetched but actually in comparison to your Big Brother protector religion/ideology (I am struggling to put a name on it) it appears very reasonable. All I can say is that is far preferable to use the facts to develop and test theories rather than the reverse, which is what you appear to be doing, that is trying desperately to make facts fit your theory. You have the same 'confirmation bias' as the Witnesses. So I see little point in trying to debate with you. I do worry though that you are very vulnerable to being the victim of a cult, if that is not already the case. Good luck, Fraz
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scotoma
Frazzled,
Humans are all vulnerable to cultish behavior. We are always trying to find a narrative that makes sense. I am more likely to believe in my own erroneous thoughts than to buy into someone else's explanation. But, I am aware of that process. The worst case is when others start to believe you and you get caught up in the transcendental temptation. I don't see that happening. As you and others have said I'm pretty "far out". But there is a difference between being far out and being far off.
I hear no voices. I don't believe in demons. I am a strict materialist. I don't believe in ESP, souls separate from bodies and it seems the promise of a resurrection is kind of a ruse. There surely is other intelligent life in the universe when you consider its size so that isn't really a big stretch or highly imaginative. If there is life it is material life that has evolved just like we have evolved plus or minus some things that each evolutionary path assembles.
Now with mass communication if aliens ever want to communicate with humans they will speak directly and not through human agents. So if someone says they talk to aliens hand them your business card and tell them where they can reach you if they have something to say.
A hypothesis is NOT a theory. As I said I am proposing a working hypothesis not too different from Setti but different in the object of the search. Setti listens to radio waves. I look for hints in religious writings. I only pay serious attention to claims that involve strange visitations by angels. I look for homology between the various incidents and the types of warnings. At its best I've only come up with what you would label a B rated SciFi scenario.
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RubaDub
I saw the same news report but doubted the content when I saw them all enjoying a formal meal later featuring pototo salad, cole slaw and baby back ribs.
Rub a Dub
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scotoma
You're just "ribbin" me.
Probably beef ribs.
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Frazzled UBM
scotoma - I don't agree that all humans are equally vulnerable to cults. Well-educated well-adjusted indivduals with critical thinking skills are less vulnerable. Humans have been successful as a species because of our ability to identify patterns - unfortunatley that means we find them where they don't in fact exist. I think this may be what is happening with your so-called working hypothesis. Looking through the Bible to identify communications from aliens strikes me as falling squarely within this characterisation? And what will happen when the Isreal/Palestine peace treaty you anticipate does not occur this year? Will you do a Watchtower and simply adjust your timing?
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scotoma
Fraz,
I never said "all humans are equally vulnerable to cults". I recognize every dimension of personality as being variable by degrees.
Especially in the area of the softer sciences - psychology, economics, sociology, anthropology you will see professors, therapists etc. peddling some serious woo. And I don't mean "working hypothesis". I mean they have a solid belief in methods that are really unproven. Just start a critical discussion about Carl Jung and you will get a pretty good gauge of how smart people can be vulnerable. Even the renowned scientist Wolfgang Pauli got sucked into Jung's vortex. Alcoholic geniuses will believe in God so they can get cured of their habit through Alcoholics Anonymous. Look up Rupert Sheldrake and his morphogenic fields theory. Do you ever watch how often Wayne Dyer gets a chance to sell his crap on educational television?
I admit that when I was younger I read Dianetics (early 1970's) and rejected it. I toyed with biorhythms for a couple months. Transcendental Meditation has never done anything for me - probably because I am already too transcendental! I even became addicted to Skinnerian behaviorism and read all of skinners books and his autobiography. None of these ideas have been robust enough to hold me. But there are millions of people who are highly educated but fall under the spell of a charismatic lecturer. Watch a few Ted lectures if you aren't convinced. If that isn't enough walk into your local Apple "Genius" bar and observe these people who are willing to pay the estate of Steve Jobs for the privilege of belonging to the church of "stolen innovation".
All humans are not equally vulnerable to cults but education doesn't seem to be a panacea. And why should we even want people to NOT be vulnerable to cults. What people become interested in is associated with their need for novelty. And out of novelty comes discovery. So maybe we have to put up with all the dead ends of novelty to get a better understanding of our universe. Neil Degrasse Tyson gives an excellent lecture addressing the belief that education makes the difference. Look it up on YouTube it's called "The Perimeter of Ignorance". Basically he points out that of the top scientists of the academy 15% profess a belief in God compared to 90% of the public. He asks why isn't it 0% of the top scientists.
So, your critique of my "working hypothesis" is mostly an emotional reaction. Senator Proxmire of Wisconsin used to hand out the Golden Fleece award to what he considered the most ridiculous research the government funded. One year it involved studying the sexual behavior of cock-roaches. Ha Ha Ha!. But if you want to control an infestation of cock-roaches don't you think it might be helpful to understand something about their sex life? So what's so objectionable about exploring religious books for some kind of evidence of alien communication. Do you believe that there is a greater or lesser likelihood that there are other more advanced civilizations in this universe? Or do you think that humans are the unique creation of an all-knowing, all-powerful god everlasting God? To be creative you need to have a capacity to withstand ridicule. Being able to withstand ridicule is not going to guarantee the production of some great idea but without that ability it is likely you will never have a great idea.
The way most people react to the Bible when they become informed enough to understand that there is no god is to discard the Bible. This is naturalistic thinking not creative-possibility thinking. Dismissing God doesn't eliminate the possibility of other sentient beings that might have an interest in human success on earth. And just because there has been no voice from heaven or on a worldwide TV hook-up doesn't limit the possibility. And just because there is the possibility that the Bible contains messages from an advanced civilization doesn't mean everyone is obligated to investigate that possibility. There are an infinite number of areas that scientists could investigate that an individual might not be interested. It doesn't rock everyone's boat. My personal obsession is without a doubt prompted by being raised a JW.
What if Israel and Palestinians don't reach an accord? There is nothing in the Bible that says they will. I have merely presented it as a possible candidate for the type of peace agreement that could be considered a major accomplishment if it actually happened. Is it likely that it will happen? Judging by news events it doesn't seem possible. But it has gotten the worlds attention. It has been a festering problem to most of the civilized world because it spawns terrorism and wastes resources in wars and weapons. It is such a tiny area but the effect is to justify tyrants who have kept over a billion people in the Mideast from joining the modern world. Even though Americans don't care much about this it is worth paying attention to even if you don't feel it has any prophetic meaning.
If it doesn't happen it is simply the null hypothesis. That is the difference between a scientific investigation and religious dogma.
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metatron
I assume you're aware of this crisis in Israel. This emerging shift within Israel is why I think we may see a sudden change in that nation politically that favors the Palestinians.
As for God, the Bible and Atheism, I keep saying that the great mass of humanity is deceived by the fallacy of the excluded middle - people are often expected to choose starkly between God/Jesus/the Bible OR atheism (often nihilism in popular culture).
I see that choice as false. There may be a middle position involving higher intelligences that are not "God" - and they may be quietly intervening in our history.
metatron