The yuk factor and others (page 5)

jgnat

Haidt argues to convince our intuition to change direction requires gentle, non-threatening encouragement.

cofty

When you look carefully at language its amazing how much metaphor we use without even realising it.

There are a rich seam of "unclean" synonyms.

"rich seam" - ha

I love humbled's list of "adult" words of disgust. Yes, I am sure we conjure these images when we want to heavily influence someone away from a particular direction. Perhaps because reason alone won't do it?

cofty

The subject could be given all the reasons in the world why his response was illogical , but he would not give it up.

We all are only partially rational beings. Is fear the basic emotion that makes us cling to familiar stories? Perhaps an intuitive fear that giving up one irrational response might lead to more unknown challenges to our worldview?

jgnat

I don't think our intuitive side is logical at all. It has a few fundamental principles (moral foundations listed below) that are interpreted a little differently by different societies; hates pain, loves pleasure. Eat, sleep, smell the flowers, and watch a beautiful sunset.

As an aside, I had pondered the difficulties in AI, and a few things I figured early on is that a self-building AI would need sensory input, and it would have to have an instinct to explore. Otherwise, it would sit gazing at its navel and we would never know if it were intelligent or not. Well, go figure. We've got intelligent brains sitting on top of a complex sensory network, and we have drives that make no sense but they move us forward.

Here's the 5/6 proposed moral foundations that move us forward:

1) Care/harm

2) Fairness/cheating

3) Loyalty/betrayal

4) Authority/subversion

5) Sanctity/degradation

and maybe

6) Liberty/oppression

http://www.moralfoundations.org/

I think exiting Witnesses may be spurred on or inspired by violations to 1, 2, 3 and 6. If they or those they loved are betrayed or treated cruelly by the local congregation, it can "wake them up" to the other abuses and they leave.

The WTS keeps a hold on their members primarily through 3, 4, and 5.

cofty

Interesting list. I will read the link.

I actually think that number 6 is an immensely powerful force.

It brought down the Soviet Empire. Despite all the best efforts of Western governments it was a visceral reaction to oppression that lit the fire that toppled a world power.

The same will happen in North Korea sooner or later and radical Islam is doomed for the same reason.

Apognophos

I suppose the issue I am having with this thead is on a linguistic level. The thread title, to my mind, can only refer to the sense of disgust, which is something visceral. "Yuck factor" does not apply to, for instance, morally judging a disfellowshipped person as cofty has experienced. There's nothing palpable to show disgust for in that situation; that's just moral high-handedness, superciliousness. A good example of actual disgust in a JW is the one jgnat just mentioned, blood.

Mum

It takes a while to get your moral priorities in order after leaving the JW's behind. Wrapping a Christmas gift or a birthday gift, even giving such a gift -- all are "wrong" to JW's. That is batsh*t crazy! Punishing a child for eating a cupcake at a school birthday or holiday party is bizarre beyond belief! I feel so sad for children who grow up this way, not understanding what really is hurtful and harmful and what is not. I now see all JW's a child abusers, unwitting or not. These same children are taught to be gleeful that 99.99% of the world's population is going to become bird food! Sick! The biggest "yuk" factor, of course, is that they protect pedophiles.

JW's have a distorted view of sexual immorality as well. It no longer causes even a blip on my radar screen if someone is gay or cohabitating with a member of the opposite sex. JW's will protect a child molestor but disfellowship a person for having sex ONE TIME!

The way JW's spy on one another and turn one another in to the elders is now a worse sin, in my view, that whatever the person may have done to get turned in - except when someone hurt someone else (e.g., child molestation).

Discouraging education and human development is one of the greatest sins of the Watchtower.

I need to stop thinking about all this!

humbled

I am wary of a judgements that can't discern between what is apparently clean and what is apparently dirty:

When people believe that it is cleaner to excrete every imaginable toxin, pathogen and chemical into the water supply via flush toilets (then drink and bath in what can only be partially removed) think an outhouse is a laughable option to a basic human problem.

Sparkling porcelain is only a problem deferred.

When people believe that the best care for delivering a baby is found in a hospital amongst stainless steel and staph germs they are abhorred by a woman baking her birthing sheets and baby clothes in the oven before birthing at home with intelligent oversight of a midwife.

The sparkling hospital may send you home with a bundle of trouble not just a bundle of joy.

But the Yuk factor keeps us from thinking very deeply about such things.

Home butchering is a dirty work but so is commercial butchering. In both instances animals loose their life. If a person is considerate of the animal(I grant you, this is a delicate part) and clean--which is better? For the animal, I assure you it is better.

I submit, much of the yuk factor is to do with conditioning. I am NOT condemning modern plumbing,hospitals and their role in obstetrics nor the need for large scale meat factories.

However,if just because a person who takes care of their own bathroom, birthing and butchering and are obviously involved to a high degree in Yuk Factors, this does not make them any dirtier ultimately than the person who doesn't.

I'm just saying that intelligent people choose to live both ways.

We need to be careful to pick the yuk out of our own eye before picking the "Yuk" out of our brother's.

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Sorry---it took so long to write this the thread probably went in another direction.. I'll catch up

GrreatTeacher

Some people are more sensitive to some moral foundations than to others.

Politically, liberals are more sensitive to care vs. harm and fairness vs. unfairness and

conservatives are more sensitive to loyalty vs. disloyalty and sanctity vs. disgust.

I will try to find the reference for that.

The yuk factor and others

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