Can we excuse the R&F for ever ?

by Phizzy 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • metatron
    metatron

    This is difficult, isn't it? I recall a saying that 'if God didn't want us to fleece them, why did he make them sheep?'.

    It's easy to feel that way - to justify exploitation because most people won't think or reason critically.

    I imagine guys like Buddha struggled with this too, in trying to show compassion.

    I think the whole world is becoming dominated by passive-aggressive people, the 'Truth' included. They won't openly rebel but they won't cooperate either, as long as they can get away with not getting caught. The end of the Organization - whenever that happens - will be with a whimper not a bang.

    I swear Witnesses will actually kill themselves ( as with not taking blood) as long as their peers are watching but violate any principle of decency if they know that no one is watching. This isn't too different from other fanatical faiths.

    metatron

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    WT/JWs come under more scrutiny and criticism then others simply because of their unwavering, hardline Provincialism. When a person/group makes extraordinary claims they had better be able to back it up. Unfortunately, JWs cut no one else any slack; a person is condemned even if acting in ignorance:

    September 2000 "Our Kingdom Ministry" under the heading "Lives are at Stake"

    "The masses of people facing annihilation if they fail to respond to the good news include our unbelieving relatives, neighbors, workmates, schoolmates and acquaintances."

    -

    "unbelieving" = they are not Jehovah's Witnesses; "good news" = Watchtower doctrines

    -

    Sorry, if JWs give no quarter then they should not expect to receive it either (from the people they judge as unworthy). If they had a more reasonable "live and let live" approach, I doubt anyone would fault them for simply being sheep in a cult.

  • label licker
    label licker

    Phizzy, the brother/elder that studied with us along with his friend that he would bring told us they didn't believe half the things society was teaching. Yet, it was taught to us.

    We run into an ms once elder yesterday and he said he didn't believe what he was taught but he was just going to stay put where he is. Different jw's that we have run into will say we won't know until we're in the new system. Then why in the world would you tell others if you have doubts yourself? I

    It maddens me that we were duped by those who aren't so duped yet played on our innocense and good nature to make themselves look good. They don't dare come by us for they know we now know ttatt and we will give them a piece of our mind like we did to the ms that we ran into yesterday. Apparently, he says he will call us with the answers to our questions but I highly doubt that will happen. Time will tell.

  • adamah
    adamah

    I wrote an article that touched on the "I was only following orders" defense attempted at Nuremburg, where a military tribunal said individuals are responsible for accepting personal responsibility for their actions, i.e. no finger-pointing allowed. You did it, you own up to it. No excuses.

    It's been the same in the US military for at least a half-century, where each individual is taught in basic training about the Geneva Convention (using the massacre at mai lai incident from the Vietnam War as an example). All GIs are told they cannot expect to use such a defense, since the UCMJ says they're expected to follow only LAWFUL orders of their superiors, and specifically told to reject UNLAWFUL orders (where committing atrocities against non-enemy combatant civilians, including women and young children, is unlawful). Each individual is thus expected to exercise his individual conscience, and be a "whistle-blower".

    Since accepting personal responsibility applies to a 17 year old private in the US Army, it seems reasonable to apply the same concept to not only active JWs, but to ex-JWs, too, owning up to their past 'offenses' committed against others in the name of obedience to authority figures (elders), participating as a member of a mindless mob which practiced shunning.

    http://awgue.weebly.com/countering-jw-shunning-how-the-implications-of-stanley-milgrams-work-may-suggest-using-a-different-approach.html

    However, few individuals seemingly possess the personal integrity to actually admit they WERE a member of a cult that exploited the mob mentality (even as they denounce others for staying in!), and even as they continue to show a different flavor of the same mob mentality AFTER leaving. Ironic, no? Some simply change flavors of dogmas, but not the basic underlying character flaw, since that is much harder to do.

    Phizzy said- As the WT descends in to becoming more and more like North Korea in its Do Not Question, Simply Obey ! stance, how much longer can we continue to make excuses for the R&F JW's, who in practising Shunning for example, are "simply obeying orders" ??

    I'm curious: what's the basis for claiming the "WT has become more-and-more like N Korea"? What specific example did you have in mind when you made that assertion?

    Because if anything, I'd say the GB has had to become less-authoritarian compared to the days of CT Russell, Rutherford, and Freddy Franz, with an authoritarin dictator at the helm of the GB who demanded strict obedience or it was off with your head.... That was the point of Ray Franz's discussion of the "democratization" of the GB that was under debate in the 1980's/90's, with individuals not being allowed to dominate the GB via changes in determining concensus opinion, etc. Per Franz in CoC, that change actually occurred in the late 90's, with changes implemented in the the GB that supposedly allowed it to operate more in accord with the principles of a collective brotherhood.

    Are you aware of something more recent, perhaps with a reversion to a past authoritarian dictatorship?

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    All I am aware of Adam is what I have observed over the years personally. I was born-in during the 1950's , and therefore in my twenties during the 70's when all sorts of freedoms were exercised by us young JW's that would be condemned now, HUGE party's with hundreds present being just one example.

    During the early Eighties I distributed an article amongst the Elders and others in my Congregation, questioning the Watchtower's interpretation of Scripture, I was given pathetic answers by the Elders, but nothing worse.

    Today I would be hauled in front of a J.C for that.

    Not so long ago, those same Elders tried to DF me for what I thought, now a crime in their eyes.

    Every WT now is praising the leadership and making them in to 8 God's , and is demanding constantly that the JW's OBEY !

    Are they now so very differnt from somewhere like North Korea ?

    blimey, even the Songs sound similar !

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Adam: Because if anything, I'd say the GB has had to become less-authoritarian

    --

    you do have a wonderful dry sense of humor, Adam.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Phizzy said- All I am aware of Adam is what I have observed over the years personally.

    OK, but of course anyone who's familiar with stats knows the dangers of relying on one's personal experiences in order to reach conclusions: just as hearing a voice in one's head is not conclusive proof for the existence of God, the same goes for other anecdotal accounts and personal experiences, since the sample size is incredibly small with an 'n =1' (eg you may have been cut some slack as a younger person in your area, or were shielded from attacks by a family member's pull, etc. You outlived your forebearance, overturn of the power structure occurred, and now the local BOE are gunning for you... Who knows? That's the danger of relying on small samples).

    Phizzy said- Every WT now is praising the leadership and making them in to 8 God's , and is demanding constantly that the JW's OBEY ! Are they now so very differnt from somewhere like North Korea ? blimey, even the Songs sound similar !

    Really? You'd compare N. Korea, where people are put to death for minor crimes (as being caught with a cell phone that can operate outside N Korea), to the WTBTS? WOW!

    Shirley said- you do have a wonderful dry sense of humor, Adam.

    So, you want to take the challenge, then? Should be no problem for someone who just said this, above:

    Shirley said- When a person/group makes extraordinary claims they had better be able to back it up.

    Please provide ONE CONCRETE example of how the WTBTS is more-authoritarian than it was in the past century.

    Off the top of my head, I can think of ONE obvious example of less-authoritarian behavior vs in the past: they're quietly back-pedding by softening their strict "no blood" policy, quietly implementing local HLCs with elders trying to convince R&F JWs they really should accept blood fractions to avoid dying from refusing life-saving blood (the old instincts die hard amongst the rank and file, and they'd rather die than learn about what is acceptable by the Borg, as if "better safe than sorry" applies to blood).

    But again, the entire issue of "less- vs more-authoritarian GB" is a red-herring, since in the end, it's up to rank and file themselves to be held personally responsible for their OWN behavior, and not blame the "evul GB" (who are also scared of miscalculating, and being forced out after a failed power coup, like Ray Franz found out the hard way).

    Instead, members need to vote with their feet to save themselves; they largely are harming themselves by deny their personal responsibility for the choices they make (whether it be the choice to shun their own family, or losing their lives by refusing blood).

    Blaming only the GB is just more straw-manning, and wasted effort of creating some group to blame for all that ills an entire organization, and offers a simplistic answer to a complex problem that doesn't actually resolve the issue. ALL members, from the GB on down to the unbaptized publisher who fills a seat, share in the collective blame. That's the point the WT makes for other religions, and it's one trusim they get right.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    The GB is not less authoritarian. They are simply playing a mind game, like all abusers do. They say, " We are not the masters over your faith...but YOU will be held accountable for what you do. You don't have to listen to us if you don't want to...we love you sooo much." The message gets through, and it is, " OBEY the SLAVE or you are gambling with your life!"

    So can we condemn the R&F?? Knowledge brings responsibility and accountability. How many of us were truly ignorant? Once you learn TTATT, you have a moral obligation to stop supporting lies. This is especially true if you believe that the bible is God's word. Let me tell you, it aint easy. When your spouse believes the WT, and you refuse to preach what the WT says, then TTATT brings a sword into the home. I can see why a secretly doubting JW would bury that feeling. The implications of JWism being wrong are HUGE. Then add extreme shunning to that. Some people cannot stare into the abyss, and some can't keep eye contact once they do.

    All that I can do is continue to learn and stand up for what I know is right. I will not teach, preach, or reinforce WT false teachings in my home. For now, that's the best I can do. What will happen if I am backed into a corner? I guess I will find out what I am made of.

    If tomorrow the Elders told me that a special program has been implemented that would instantly make me an Elder, and all I had to do was sign a loyalty oath to the GB and I did it....then judge away. That would be equal to supporting their actions and decisions, which I will not do. I believe there is a difference in cowering before men, or willingly supporting falsehoods that you are aware of, and in being ignorant.

    We would need intimate knowledge of an individuals level of awareness before we could even dream of judging them. We can all read the words of the WT and then see the fruitage of the Org. So making a call against those who write those articles is pretty easy. They actually condemn themselves. The R&F is another matter. Unless you have been raised as a JW, you can't understand the mindset. I guess you could DF them, in a way. Just limit your association with JW drones, while trying to awaken them. Hate the actions, but try to understand where they are coming from.

    In the end it is up to each of us to say, " Enough is Enough!" Whether that means becoming inactive, DAing, fading, or going out with a blaze of glory, I can't say. It's going to be different for everyone.

    Here is a good question. What if the Government did ban JWism because of the WTBTS's corruption? If they came to your house because you are in the KH records, what would you do? What if they said, " Just sign this peice of paper and we will consider you no part of JWism. The GB are going to jail, so are all the Elders. The rest of jws have to make choice. Do you consider yourself a JW or not..." What do you really think most R&F would do? What would they do if the Authorities took the time to show them TTATT before giving them a choice to DA?? It's interesting to think about, IMO.

  • clarity
    clarity

    Shirley ......great quote, thanks!

    Awake!, September 8, 1987, pages 10 and 11: Future Prospects for Protestantism—And for You!

    If Your Church Fails to Act, Will You?

    If, after making an honest investigation, you are less than pleased with what you see, do more than just complain. A journalist, while commenting on Karl Barth’s statement that a church is its members, logically concluded: "Church members . . . are responsible for what the church says and does." So ask yourself: Am I willing to share responsibility for everything my church says and does? Can I really be proud of having all its members as spiritual brothers?"

    clarity

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Adam: Please provide ONE CONCRETE example of how the WTBTS is more-authoritarian than it was in the past century.

    --

    Firstly, the WT's blood fractions policy has nothing to do with being less authoritarian. Secondly, how does a transition from one dictator to eight dictators constitute a "less authoritarian" Watchtower? Authority has nothing to do with how power is shared amongst the elite...it has to do with how WT's policies, doctrines and culture dominate the lives of the rank-and-file.

    --

    Here's one "concrete example" of how WT has become "more authoritarian":

    -

    "Beware of organization. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours." 9/15/1895 Watchtower

    w81

    12/1 p. 27 par. 4 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter

    4 No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.—Compare Acts 8:30-40.

    "To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

    "Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" - Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212

    ---

    I find it laughable you see the Org. as "less authoritarian" when the governing body has just marginalized all "anointed" ones except themselves as "also-rans" while condensing the ruling authority of the "faithful and discreet slave" to only eight men-the Governing Body. If that's not the ultimate power grab and show of authority, then I don't know what is.

    -

    [edit] in reference to this quote: "Do not seek to bind others consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours." 9/15/1895 Watchtower

    How does WT's ban on blood transfusions coupled with their nauseatingly exhaustive list of absurd 'allowed' blood fractions not constitute a 'binding of other's conscience'? Does this not also constitute an authoritarian mindset?

    -

    There, you asked for one example, I gave you two. Consider it a gift.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit