Hortenzie, I don't believe this thread is about obvious consequences from free will decisions we make, like if we jump off the roof we are going to die. It's about having consequenses imposed on us from others (the borg, God, elders) that ought to mind there own business.
Free Will - What a Joke !
by cookiemaster 36 Replies latest jw experiences
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BackseatDevil
The two questions that are asked of everyone who gets baptized revokes the idea of “free will.” When you get baptized you agree that you have now “repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will.” Furthermore you realize that through baptism you agree to be be identified as “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization.”
Everything else – if you're studying, a spouse of a Witness, parents are in, family, etc. – is implied loss of free will. You actually have all the free-will you want, you are only afraid of the human retribution that comes with it. Once baptized, you can try to exercise free will, but you are subject to the godly retribution that comes with it. In this case “godly” means the Governing Body of the WTBTS.
The concept of free-will is something that is given up freely and publicly... with handshakes and pats on the back, celebrations and congratulatory expressions.
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pontoon
But at the same time it's the borg and watchtower telling us we have free will despite the imposed penalities for not towing the company line
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OUTLAW
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adamah
Backseat Devil said- Everything else – if you're studying, a spouse of a Witness, parents are in, family, etc. – is implied loss of free will. You actually have all the free-will you want, you are only afraid of the human retribution that comes with it.
Once baptized, you can try to exercise free will, but you are subject to the godly retribution that comes with it. In this case “godly” means the Governing Body of the WTBTS.
Well, in all fairness, unlike the R&F (who parrot the "robots" meme), the WTBTS is careful about differentiating between 'free will' and 'freedom of choice' in their recent pubs, where the only time JWs are allowed to use "free will" is in those matters where God hasn't provided direction in the Bible (and as interpreted in the pubs), AKA "conscience matters".
This is stuff like "Do I wear the red tie or blue tie?", or "do I want to eat vanilla or chocolate ice cream?", etc. And actually, the Society recently gave JWs the authority to choose or reject minor blood fractions (primarily to avoid a slew of wrongful death lawsuits, but still, it's a move in the right direction).
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OUTLAW
And actually, "the Society" recently "GAVE"JWs the authority to.....Adamah
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BackseatDevil
@adamah You're right. We, as humans, tend to put more weight on issues regarding the association of and arround this religion when it comes to how we should respond to things. There is a difference between free-will and 'freedome of choice' and the Russia situation has given us a great example of the difference between the two: Do you have to ask permission to protest?
If you do not, you have the right to exercise free-will. If you do, you only have freedom of choice.
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myelaine
The bible says that none are born with "free will" we are born in bondage...to our fallen nature.
Jesus Christ (the second adam) sets us free...to be a new creation. Born again...to enter His kingdom.
love michelle
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adamah
Backseat devil said- There is a difference between free-will and 'freedome of choice' and the Russia situation has given us a great example of the difference between the two: Do you have to ask permission to protest?
If you do not, you have the right to exercise free-will. If you do, you only have freedom of choice.
Yup, and that's an interesting way of putting it. Of course, in modern democratic societies, we generally don't need to seek permission to exercise free-speech rights (but not always: sometimes the gov't requires pre-approval for protests, esp if there's a public-safety issues at play).
That concept doesn't just apply to asking for permission to protest, but asking for permission to do anything before doing it, eg Adam and Eve didn't need to ASK for permission to eat the forbidden fruit, since God had previously expressedly-forbidden it. So they only had "freedom of choice" to obey or disobey, and pay the consequences if they disobeyed.
The same applies to the change in JW blood policy in 2006, which removed the penalty (DFing) from accepting 'minor' blood fractions and declaring it a "conscience matter" (AKA free will decision): what used to be a decision where the member had the "freedom of choice" to 'accept blood & get DFed' or 'refuse blood & risk death' was delegated for JWs to make.
Not just that, the WTBTS actually compelled them to record their wishes on a blood card, and provided a worksheet in Kingdom Ministry Nov 2006 (p.3) that made it perfectly-clear this was "your personal decision", and saying "choices you need to make", with checkboxes to indicate the choice the individual made of their own free will:
Of course, the GB didn't do that out of the kindness of their hearts: instead, they're trying to slowly back-peddle away from the "no whole blood" policy of the past to avoid an avalanche of wrongful death lawsuits, coming from future families who may have lost loved ones who died under the policy of REQUIRING refusal of blood under penalty of DFing. Instead, they've got HLC elders trying to encourage JWs to use the 'acceptable alternatives', and if not, at least make sure the WTBTS is shielded from liability with the paperwork filled out that distances "Mother" from the decisions made by the rank-and-file.
They're trying to avoid those cases from hitting the courts, since if there's one thing the GB and WT Legal is concerned with more than serving Jehovah, it's protecting their true God (the Almighty $).
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Captain Obvious
Are you a Sam Harris fan at all? He wrote a great short book on the subject.
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