I think one of the great evils that religious leaders do to believers is manipulate through guilt and fear the bond they want with their god, however they perceive god to be. Loss of salvation, loss of eternity, loss of peace of mind are very powerful tools in a clergy laity relationship. Accept blood and lose your eternity and have god mad at you are horrible misuses of clergy priviledge.
Why JWs would commit murder if ordered to by the GB
by kneehighmiah 60 Replies latest jw friends
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lisaBObeesa
Lisa, choosing a temporary death instead of everlasting life, then temporary life would be convenient to a jw.
Of course, Blondie. But this belief is based on what the GB tells them. They believe it and will die for it.
The point is, the GB told them what to believe (they should die temporarily rather than take blood), and they do it, believing the temporary death/everlasting life thing based only on the authority of the GB, like to subjects in the experiment in the op believed they were doing the right thing, based on the authority of the 'doctor' present.
Just like some people in other religions who fear going to hell, make choices to go to heaven.
I don't think JW's scrificing their lives is anything like a non-cultist regular religious person making choices to go to heaven. Maybe you could compare it to Islamic terrorists who blow themselves up for God, but other than that, I don't see it.
Jws hope and pray that they never have to face such a choice.
Of course! My father doesn't want to die. But he has a serious heart problem and he has made it very clear that he will 'not violate his Bible trained conscience' and take blood when the time comes. He already has refused it and it is a miracle he is still alive. He already gave his life...he just happened to live...
But his conscience is NOT Bible trained, it is GB trained. If he researched the Bible he would see that. But he doesn't.
Whatever they teach him he believes. He does not check it out.WHATEVER they teach him, he believes. In his mind, the GB knows better than he does. They are like the doctors in the experiement. They have the white coats of authority, they are believed, so he tends to do what they say, espcially when it comes to life and death!
But! He is an irregular publisher and breaks numerous small rules. He even had a beard for a while! He believes he is a 'weak' JW, but he is a JW none the less. When it comes down to it, he WILL die because that is a biggie they have been preparing him for his whole life: You DIE rather than have blood. And he will.
Same with my sister, but she breaks NO JW rules at all. She is faithful in the smallest thing! She has signed the paperwork about blood. She doesn't want to die, but she will. Because the GB tells her to, not because of the Bible. Because of the GB and how they have conditioned her.
I watched my friend's aunt die from refusing blood. I've seen many many people here on this board share about people they know personally who died by refusing blood. There are uncountable posts here like that.
I guess the thing I took exception to is 'jws as a group are obedient when it is convenient.'
We just disagree on the 'as a group' part: As a group, I see them as obedient. There are some who break the small rules, and a very few who secretly break the big rules. But as a group, they will do as commanded by the GB, especially when it comes to life and death. It almost seems as if some rules are more unbreakable than others. Like saluting the US flag. That one is right up there with blood. ( maybe even more unbreakable than blood, these days.)
(I mean all of this to be in a friendly, respectful and conversational tone. Sorry if I get over excited.)
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kneehighmiah
The whole "bible trained conscience" thing is pure conditioning. Studies show that blind obedience causes us to ignore our conscience. That's exactly why the test subjects who followed orders felt uncomfortable. Yet they did it anyway. The GB has caused many people to ignore their natural conscience and make choices they normally wouldn't. Chosing to die because of blood and shunning family members are examples.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Of course! My father doesn't want to die. But he has a serious heart problem and he has made it very clear that he will 'not violate his Bible trained conscience' and take blood when the time comes. He already has refused it and it is a miracle he is still alive. He already gave his life...he just happened to live...
But his conscience is NOT Bible trained, it is GB trained. If he researched the Bible he would see that. But he doesn't.
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It is absurd, considering that the WT used to allow blood transfusions but had a ban on organ transplants until the mid-1960's. Then they banned blood transfusions and allowed organ transplants (and did NOT allow any blood fractions initially).
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You are right, Lisa- a JWs choices have nothing to do with their conscience- they are blindly obedient to whatever the GB tells the to do. A JWs "conscience" moves in perfect lockstep to the GB's ever-changing doctrines and policies.
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blondie
The original question was would a jw kill another person if ordered to by the GB, Lisa. I'm sorry for your father, you and your family. But he is choosing about his own life. Would he kill someone else if ordered to by the GB though. I don't think so. It would take a lot of backtracking with WT policy and teaching to get jws to do that. Maybe if they were attacked and their lives were threatened...
I can remember the last year I attended, my hubbie and I laughed about what we would do if they locked the doors and brothers were guarding them with AK-47s...would it be the koolaid meeting? That was 12 years ago and the WTS hasn't really conditioned people to that yet. jws go to conventions they aren't assigned to, or hotels not on the list, buy houses and cars, don't pioneer, go to R-rated movies, etc. All small things not something your "everlasting life" is based on.
I hope your father examines all his choices even under the WTS rules. Have his doctor contact the HLS and make his own research.
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Apognophos
I agree, there's a huge difference between martyring yourself and taking someone else's life. The conditions simply do not exist, and are not close to existing, for JWs to be urged to kill others. If you're hypothesizing about some possible future in 2044, then who can possibly say what things will be like by then? To suggest that the Milgram experiment pertains to JWs is to seriously over-estimate how insitutionalized the average JW is.
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lisaBObeesa
I agree, there's a huge difference between martyring yourself and taking someone else's life.
When they let their childen die, they are taking someone else's life.
Yes, they are not shooting someone. But they have not been conditioned/ordered to do that. Nobody is saying the GB would do that.
People are saying IF the GB DID condition/order them to shoot someone in the same way they have conditioned/ordered with blood, saluting the flag, etc, many JWS would go along.
If the GB laid out a rediculous agrument that it is biblical to shoot police officers who try to stop a JW meeting in countries that oppose the JWs, used fear and conditioning in the literature and in talks for a while, I have absolutely no doubt that many JWs would do as instructed if the direction came from the "FDS". Again, NOT saying the GB would do this. Saying that if they did, many JWs would go along.
They do not evaluate right and wrong based on anything other than what the GB says is right or wrong.
I hope your father examines all his choices even under the WTS rules. Have his doctor contact the HLS and make his own research.
I'm afraid my Dad is too conditioned from many, many years in the Org. He is now well aware of the blood faction options, but his 'conscience' does not allow him to use them. I think the only way he would use them is if the GB TOLD him to use them/that the Bible said to use them. then maybe. But for now, in his mind, the old GB order is still in effect.
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wasblind
The GB have already told folks
to listen , Obey. and be Blessed
even if it sound ridiculous
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I'd say that's a sure fire sign of a cult goin' crazy
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If your name ain't Abraham
don't expect to find a ram in a bush to take the place of a loved one
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AndDontCallMeShirley
The conditions simply do not exist, and are not close to existing, for JWs to be urged to kill others.
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How many "unthinkables" have occurred in recent history where one day "the conditions" didn't exist, and the next day they did, if in no other place than the minds of a group or individual? (Rwanda; Bosnia, etc.).
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The point is simply this: if killing an apostate was not in the thinking of WT, why even mention it? If blind obedience to the GB, even if the orders do not make "logical sense from a human point of view", was not in the thinking of WT, why would they mention it? These are subtle yet powerful statements meant to condition the mind of JWs for a specific outcome. It may seem unthinkable, but people also said the same thing about Jonestown, The Holocaust, The Branch Davidians, etc.
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there is a saying: "Water does not wear a hole in a rock by force, but by persistence". What other aim could there be behind the WT's persistence, especially recently, for insinuated violence and undying, blind obedience if not for preparing the mindset of a JW to do something that offends an otherwise rational human being's moral sensitivities?
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And as some have said, suicide and homocide are both murder; if you can influence a JW to do one (suicide by refusal of a blood transfusion) then is it really such a leap to go to the next step, the execution/murder of an enemy of Jehovah?
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SAHS
“designs”: “Turning to murder is a stretch.”
True, it would be a stretch for the GB to go against the “superior authorities” and sanction JWs to murder their “enemies” (“apostates”) at this time. However, the OP was hypothesizing what JWs WOULD do IF ordered to by the GB.
Considering some of the earlier WT quotes, it would seem that the GB would be titillated and pretty much salivating at the idea of being able to carry out their own fundamentalist capital punishment IF they were to somehow be allowed to – either because of a change to a new set of “superior authorities” or because of the same ones operating under a vastly different set of new and emerging policies due to some extremely disastrous upset in society, such as a nuclear war or natural disaster (asteroid impact, major volcanic ground eruption in Yellowstone National Park, mega-tsunami from sudden landslide on La Palma Island, electromagnetic solar corona discharge, super zombie-like viral outbreak, major earthquake from Rosie O’Donnell falling off her chair, etc.).
And, of course, if the WT’s whole Armageddon and new system thing was actually true and the whole world was to be ruled over by the WTS, then I would imagine it would be a real stretch for them not to use murder against anyone not playing by the rules. Those 250,000 or so people every year, not to mention the 50,000 or more between the years 1961 and 2012, who have suffered premature death as a direct result of WTS’ blood policy would be just but a taste of what it would be like in that scenario!