No Satan

by jgnat 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Bugbear
    Bugbear

    Is the devils origin a mystery? In all times and all different religious movements, the very presents of evilness have been obvious. Humans kill humans. War crimes appear every year. We eat almost everything we can lay our hands of. We steal each other’s food, wives and children. All of human kind (mostly men) is very anxious to be on the top of the food chain. Many of these religious movements call it Satanic or the devils business.

    But is this not what any other creature does? My cat, do not bother to kill a rat, if he can. My dog steals my sausages if he can get away with it, whiteout me knowing. Even my hens and roosters are picking on each other, if they think they are stronger than the other.

    Some recent science research on chimpanzees and gorillas in a sociological study shows very clearly their behavior (in a sociological manor), is very similar to the Homo sapiens, sapiens.

    I say that Satan or evilness is in our head. We all (including myself), first of all use our reptile brain.

    It is all about to survive. You hit first and you survive. If not you will become the food for someone else.

    Evilness, or Satanic behavior, is just a rest product of our evolution history. If we can perceive that it is possibly for us to develop our minds and correct it to a more “human” behavior.

    Bugbear

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    So the devil's origins are a mystery?

    Not sure if you mean within the Bible or in actual history, but the fact that the Bible doesn't just spell out the back story of the Devil is very telling. He simply appears as a snake for the first time (if you listen to Christians), with no explanation of what he was thinking or planning, leaving later thinkers to come up with their own explanations to fill in the gap. If you take the book of Job as the first clear reference to an actual spirit creature called "the Resister", then at that point he's still a spirit who assembles with the angels in heaven!

    On the secular side, this is not a strong subject for me, but I've seen it said many times that the Jews adopted the beliefs of the Persians -- Manichaeism, or the eternal struggle between good and evil which are equal. Of course a Christian will say that the Devil is not equal to God at all, but the claim being made is that this religion influenced the Jews, just as we can see influences from other cultures like the Babylonians. It's certainly not surprising if the world powers each left their mark on the region's beliefs. But I still have a lot of reading to do about this.

  • PelicanBeach
    PelicanBeach

    EdenOne,

    "So, who did it? Yahweh, or Satan?"

    From the Septuagint:

    2Sa 24:1 "And the Lord caused his anger to burn forth again in Israel, and Satan stirred up David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Juda."

    In the Bible it is common for God to be either credited or said to be responsible for an event that has occurred because he has allowed it to occur. The Septuagint in this verse is clearer than the Masoretic text which I presume the ASV is using.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Pelican,

    I'm going to quote from another blogger, Chris Heard. It's a bit long, but worth reading:

    "The problem is the Hebrew word שטן or satan, pronounced sah-TAHN. In the Christian tradition, “Satan” becomes a synonym for “the devil,” and this happens in Judaism too. But there is no “devil” in the Tanak (a.k.a. Hebrew Bible, a.k.a. to Christians as [part of] the Old Testament). The Hebrew word satan means thinks like “opponent, enemy, adversary.” In a courtroom context, the satan is the prosecutor or plaintiff, and hence the “accuser.” But it isn’t an enemy of God, and it definitely isn’t “the devil.” Satan is a common noun, not a proper noun, in Biblical Hebrew, and it’s important to note that satan appears without a definite article in 1 Chron 21:1. In other words, “Satan rose up against Israel” is a horrible translation of 1 Chron 21:1; it should be, “an opponent rose up against Israel.”

    The translation makes a huge difference. According to the dilemma into which your English translation has misled you, there is a major contradiction between 2 Sam 24:1, which has God motivating David to take the census, and 1 Chron 21:1, which has Satan/the Devil motivating David to take the census. But once you understand the point made in the previous paragraph, a devilish Satan disappears from 1 Chron 21:1, to be replaced by two different possibilities.

    1. A human satan. A substantial fraction of the few appearances of satan in the Bible concern human enemies or opponents. In 1 Sam 29:4, the other Philistines oppose Achish when he tries to take David into battle with him: “might he not defect from us … and become our enemy (satan) during the battle?” In 2 Sam 19:22 (v. 23 in Hebrew), David asks Abishai and his allies, “What conflict is there between us … that you should become my enemy (satan) today?" (By the way, note that satan here is not just a common noun referring to a human, but a collective noun referring to a whole group of humans.) I 1 Kings 5:4 (v. 18 in Hebrew), Solomon expresses gratitude that he has “no enemy (satan),” but after Solomon gets into idolatry in 1 Kings 11, God “raised up an enemy (satan) against Solomon: Hadad the Edomite” (v. 14).

    2. A heavenly satan. In the story of Balaam and his donkey, the “angel of the Lord,” a.k.a. just “the Lord” in the same chapter, stands in the road “as an adversary (satan)” to Balaam. That story has all sorts of interesting “problems” of its own, but this usage establishes that an angel sent by God, or God himself, can be a satan.

    So it turns out that, if you read 1 Chronicles 24:1 like a fourth- or fifth-century BC Judean instead of like a modern Western Christian, there is no contradiction between that verse and 2 Samuel 24:1. 1 Chron 24:1 could indicate that a human enemy arose against Israel—and this could even be another nation, like Moab or Edom or whatever—which prompted David to take the census (which is for military, not administrative, purposes). Or 1 Chron 24:1 could indicate that a divine enemy arose against Israel—not the Devil, who is otherwise unknown in the Old Testament, but God himself, as in the story of Balaam. If you go with a human enemy, the author of Chronicles might be trying to tone down God’s involvement by adding a second layer of causality—a proximate cause, if you will, that any reader familiar with 2 Sam 24:1 (of which there would have been very few at the time Chronicles was composed) could accept while still holding to God as the ultimate cause. (This is the same maneuver that allows a person to be an “evolutionary creationist” or “theistic evolutionist”—God as ultimate cause and evolutionary processes as proximate causes.) If you go with a divine enemy, then the two verses make exactly the same claim, with 1 Chronicles 24:1 expressed in a more circumspect way.

    Again, I do not offer this explanation as a way to defend inerrancy. I don’t advocate that term or champion its cause. But there is such a thing as drawing a good conclusion from poor data, and I think you’ve stumbled into that thicket here. In fact, I’d suggest that the differing numbers for the census figures pose a bigger problem for “inerrancy” than the use of the term satan in 1 Chron 24:1, which as I’ve already said is only an illusory problem caused by English.

    For the cognoscenti reading this comment, I should perhaps add that the Septuagint of 1 Chronicles translates שטן as διαβολος, diabolos—which is also a common noun rather than a proper noun here, “an adversary, an opponent.” (It’s just diabolos, not ho diabolos—no definite article). It’s a fine translation, as long as readers aren’t misled by the later history of the word diabolos through a kind of reverse etymology.

    Finally, a parting shot: if either book was written as an apology for David's reign or the Davidic dynasty, it would have been 1–2 Samuel, not 1–2 Chronicles. Some scholars have argued that substantial parts of 1–2 Samuel were written during the 10th century BC as an apology for David, though to other scholars pushing the composition of these books so early seems quaint. But 1–2 Chronicles couldn’t have been written (or at least finished) before about 500–450 BC, since a few of the genealogies in the book go down that far. Its composition belongs to a time when David and his lineage were a treasured memory, but when in real life the temple, not the royal palace, stood at the center of civic organization. David didn’t need defending by the time 1–2 Chronicles was written. Defending him was irrelevant because there was no monarchy to defend."

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    Oh wait... You mean god wasn't really going around opening up ladies wombs??? He just got credit for everything that happens that was good and the devil got credit for everything that happens thats bad?

    Yup. Makes sense now.

  • Bugbear
    Bugbear

    Looking into various religious scriptures trying to proof the existance of satan, its like chasing shadows. when you find them, they disappear. It is much better to look at the actual world, and draw your conclusions from what you see.

    Bugbear

  • PelicanBeach
    PelicanBeach

    EdenOne,

    Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible is in agreement with your quote:

    "And he moved David - In 1Ch_21:1 the statement is, “and an adversary” (not “Satan,” as the King James Version, since there is no article prefixed, as in Job_1:6; Job_2:1, etc.) “stood up against Israel and moved David,” just as 1Ki_11:14, 1Ki_11:23, 1Ki_11:25 first Hadad, and then Rezon, is said to have been “an adversary” (Satan) to Solomon and to Israel. Hence, our text should be rendered, “For one moved David against them.” We are not told whose advice it was, but some one, who proved himself an enemy to the best interests of David and Israel, urged the king to number the people."

    I myself do not have enough information to agree or disagree; I've not made a study of the word satan/resistor in the OT. The NT, on other hand, does treat the word Satan as a spirit individual. In either case it makes little actual difference if Jehovah "caused" or "allowed" a fallen spirit son or a human resister to plant a wrong idea in David's mind. David went forth with it. We are responsible for our own actions no matter who it is that encourages us to go the wrong way.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    As a rabbit trail to my own thread, I referred a (ditzy) colleague to the apocrypha after she asked my opinion on Revelation. I told her I wish it hadn't made the canon. Which led to a discussion about the books that didn't make it.

    She was so excited that afternoon, as she looked up this wealth of literature she had never known. "It's so interesting," she gushed, "I never knew Eve had twins!".

    "Or they could just be stories," I said.

    Zip, right over her head.

  • PelicanBeach
    PelicanBeach

    As my husband would say, "There's nothing wrong with stories, especially good ones!"

    Thanks for this thread, jgnat.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I read that the Satan we know today is a late Christian construct. Jews don't have a negative view of Satan. I discussed it with some friends I respect. They think we make a god out of Satan where only God should be God. I discovered the material a long while ago after studying Jung's Answer to Job. Jesus was Jewish so he would have had the take on Satan shown in the NT.

    I concluded, based on my gut, tht YHWH is the character that most fits the designation for Satan. Human suffering, particularly arbitrary human suffering, makes me angry. Once when I was in large teach hospital a doctor told me how he lost his Episcopal faith. I had no clue that almost all the buildings were cancer hospitals. It happens so frequently that humans had to build cancer centers to hold all the children. Other friends discussed losing a sibling to schizoprhenia. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can know these things and not have worsihp problems.

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