Fastest TTATT ever, maybe!!!??

Ok we all know that sharing TTATT with someone is very difficult, especially if it means explaining things or sharing multiple scriptures with someone. Their minds glaze over and their brains throw up a blockade. The best way to show TTATT is always from the bible in my opinion for they will only give the bible any credence, and you have to use theirs. I always thought Luke 21:8 a great fast way to share TTATT but they will just in their minds explain it way since they don't see themselves as claiming to be Jesus. So anyway I think I may have found the fastest way to blow up their religions most basic 'Truth' with only 4 scriptures. Here it goes; We all know that JW's are taught that there is 2 groups of Christians and the special group in the Anointed 144,000 and they use the scripture at Rev. 5:10 that says this, NWT "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth"

So lets Identify who the 144k are again at Rev.7:4 NWT"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel".So they are a sealed group taken out of every tribe of Israel. So let’s go back and make sure thats who Rev 5:10 is taking about and will start with verse 9 NWT. "And they sing a new song, saying You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you brought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth".Well in verse 9 it says they these people are brought out of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, yet the 144K are only out of the tribes of Israel, so could these scriptures be talking about some ones else? Turn back over to chapter 7 and lets read verse 9 NWT "After these things I saw and, look! a Great Crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb,dressed in white robes, and there were palm branches in their hands."

So who is these verses at Rev.5:9-10 talking about again, the 144K or the Great Crowd? So then who is going to be made a kingdom of priests and rule as kings over the earth???

I am not sure if this is the fastest form of TTATT but if nothing else it has to get the person you’re talking to really thinking. It would really be great if someone here can employ this on someone and report back with the results. I also think this may be the best topic others of other Christian faiths can use to help wake up JW's.

BU2B

I dunno.. Most JWs dont even know what the WT understanding is on thos scriptures. They have to understand what they are supposed to know before they understand why it is wrong.. Also, doctrine is not the best way to START waking up a sleeping witness. Once they are open to the GB not being accurate nor Gods channel, then the doctrine falls apart as well and one can see just how flawed and poorly developed it is. Jws do NOT care what the scriptures say! They only care what the GB tells them the scriptures say.

Syme

This is not hard for a learned JW. They can easily respond that "Israel" refers to the spiritual Israel (hence the anointed), while ''all nations'' refers to, well, all nations. Arbitrary reasoning of course, but this is the 'correct' jw answer.

Things that have to do with the Org and the GB are far more likely to awake someone to TTATT. And if he's science-inclined, evolution, naturally.

If you are allowed to use *only* the Bible, there are dozens of things: The genocide of the Canaanites is one of my favourites. After reading some passage from Joshua or Judges (involving lot of slaughter), you ask: "What would you do if you were an Israelite Jehovah's witness at the time of the conquest of Canaan? Would you take the sword and slaughter kids, infants, and women?"

If he answers ''yes'', then you ask: "How can you, then, state before the secular authorities that you are a conscientious objector, that your conscience does not allow you to even HOLD a weapon, let alone use it???"

If he answers ''no'', then you say: ''Well, that would be disobeying Jehovah's organization. Would you disobey Jehovah's organization TODAY if your conscience told you so? The Organization today teaches that the annihilation of the Canaanites was justified. Do you agree with this or not?" [if he agrees, this contradicts his previous negative answer].

I've used this exact sequence in a couple of persons, and they did get a little disoriented...

rebel8

I don't get it.

Obviously the strategy of pointing out internal inconsistencies with their interpretation of their holy book is a good one.

Not sure how this does that? They think the tribes is a figurative thing, but even if not, the 144k could be people who had Israelite lineage from way back, no matter what tongue and nation they are from. I thought that was their reasoning on this.

Crazyguy

The scriptures show that its great crowd who is being spoken about and not the 144K, yes it is possible to think that the 144k are also part of this great crowd but the scriptures clearly show that the 144k are not the specific ones being singled out to be Kings and Priests over the rest of mankind. This kills all their ideas of having power over another. Emperor with no clothes. Yes I'm not sure how many new ones over the last 10-15 would even know much about this 144K anointed class but surely when explained to them this must do something to pull the blinders off the idea that there are these anointed ones that are our leaders, am I wrong. I was in around 1975 and young and all the while growing up these anointed 144K was what made the religion specail to me and gave the leaders my loyalty. With out it I would have questioned even sooner I believe. JMO.

Terry

There can only be interpretations about things which aren't TRUE FACTS.

If you can't detect reality you can't detect what is true ABOUT reality.

If you go to China there isn't a Chinese version of 2+2 which would equal 7

If you go to Germany or Norway or Sumatra 2+2 = would not change from country to country.

Why? The FACT of 2+2 is that it always = 4 and is not subject to interpretations.

Facts do not CALL FOR LOYALTY. Facts call for understanding of reality.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't really about facts. They are about loyalty to interpretation about presumed facts.

Now how different is that?

Rather than understanding something which is TRUE and REAL, JW's have reduced worship to going-along-to-get-along.

That is a very different thing than the intelligent and rational acceptance of reality!

If you want to know whether something is BULLSHIT or not---see how many interpretations exist.

If there are lots of interpretations, you aren't dealing with an established FACT.

Tiktaalik

Excellent, as usual, Terry.

leaving_quietly

Crazyguy, that may work for a family member. I just recently thought about using this. I also thought about Philippians 3:14,15.

I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus. Therefore, let those of us who are mature be of this mental attitude, and if you are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above attitude to you.

leaving_quietly

rebel8, it's the wording:

Q: According to Rev 7:5-8, where do the 144,000 come from?

A: 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel

Q: According to Rev 7:9, where do the great crowd come from?

A: Out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues

Q: What role do the 144,000 play?

A: They will be co-rulers in heaven?

Q: Can you be more specific?

A: They will be kings and priests

Q: Where do we find that in the Bible?

A: Rev 5:10

Q: Ok, let's go there, but start with verse 9. Please read it.

A: And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

Q: Where do these kings and priests come from, according to verse 9?

A: Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation

Q: So, going back to Rev 7, what group does this best fit with?

A:

Fastest TTATT ever, maybe!!!??

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