Fastest TTATT ever, maybe!!!??

by Crazyguy 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  leaving_quietly

  sorry... double-post

  Of course, they will say those who sing the new song are the 144,000 (Rev 14:3). However, Rev 5:9 says "a new song" and then gives the words. Rev 14:3 says "singing what seems to be a new song" and that only the 144,000 could master it (not that others wouldn't try. Interestingly, Revelation talks about other songs (Rev 15:3, the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb). There isn't necessarily a direct correlation between "a new song" in Rev 5:9 and "what seems to be a new song" in Rev 14:3.
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  InChristAlone

  I see the logic on both the offense and defense on this one. Then again, it's like showing the verse that explicitly says that the great crowd is in heaven and getting a blank stare in return.

  On a side note, the JW who comes to my house says over and over that nothing was said about 1975 even though he was baptized before then. I keep bringing it up suggesting that I'm pretty sure it was. Still complete denial. And yes, I am familiar with all of the things actually mentioned about '75. I have to plant seeds by playing dumb or he won't come back.

  The most stumped I ever had him using just the Bible was taking him through all the "first and lasts" and "Alpha and Omega" in Isaiah and Revelation. He didn't come back for 8 months, so I have had to be more subtle now.
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  RottenRiley

  No, it's not going to work unless they got doubts, you were there as I, we both know Jehovah's Witnesses are chosen for their "blind obedience" and unwillingness to think!

  The Watchtower once had a quote "There are non so blinder than those who refuse to see!" African Proverb
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  leaving_quietly

  Well, I started researching this topic in full detail this morning. Including Rev 5:8-10 and Rev 14:3. The short:

  Rev 5:8-10 was a song sung by the four living creatures and the 24 elders, so it was not the same as the song sung by the 144,000 in Rev 14:3 where they sang before the throne and before the four living creatures and the 24 elders. Two different groups of singers.

  Rev 5:8-10 talks about persons bought for God. So, that led me into who was "bought" or "purchased". Yes, the 144,000 were bought. (Rev 14:3) Both 1 Cor 6:20 and 1 Cor 7:23 say, "you were bought with a price". So, who's the "you"? Who was Paul writing to? 1 Cor 1:1 says: "to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." So, everyone calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 talks about shepherding "the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son." So a lot more than just the 144,000 were "bought".

  Based on this, Rev 5:8-10 could very well include way more than 144,000. There is no direct link between 144,000 and those who serve as kings for 1,000 years in the Bible. The link just does not exist. Any link produced is pure speculation.
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  done4good

  Terry -

  Nailed it again!

  I very recently had a discussion, (both written and verbal), with a an old JW friend, where I used the same argument, (although not nearly as eloquent and concise as yours), to make the point about the uselessness of arguing scripture or doctrine. In the end, her cognitive dissonance kicked in, but I believe that was only because the point was made clear to her.

  I could not agree more that it is not only a waste of time to debate interpretation based on a false premise, but also tends to prove to be counterproductive in the end due to the dishonest and unfactual nature of the content of the discussion.

  I will write more about this on a separate thread shortly. I am still a bit raw over the outcome with the specific friend, (someone whom I care about quite a bit).

  d4g
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  Crazyguy

  Very Nice way to put all things bible related Terry!!
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  Vidiot

  non-JW: "If the Org told you to kill apostates, would you do it?"

  loyal JW: "Absolutely."

  non-JW: "Get the f**k away from me and my family."
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  Aroq

  Following the thinking on this thread I have also come up with a Biblical logical reason why the 144k is not all that reach Heaven. I have tried to use this but was given the wall of denial and diversion. Here it goes:

  In Galatians 4:21-31, Paul is speaking of the two covenants in an allegory between Hagar and Sarah. Those that were of Hagar were born in the ordinary way (Jewish descent) and those born of Sarah were a result of a promise (born by the power of the Spirit).

  Starting at verse 24 Paul goes into explaining the meaning of each Sarah and Hagar and to which Jerusalem they belong to. Hagar stood for the present city of Jerusalem and Sarah stood for the Jerusalem from above. The Jerusalem from above was free, just like Sarah in the allegory. This is the New Jerusalem spoken of in Revelation chapter 21 which is from above. In Verse 27 (a quote from Isaiah 54:1) it says that the children of the desolate woman (Sarah) will outnumber those of the woman with the husband (Hagar). It goes on in Isaiah to explain that this group will be much greater in number than the children of "Hagar".

  So all of that being said, how can the New Jerusalem (Rev chapter 21)consist of only the 144,000 if Sarah's(Jerusalem from above) descendants will out number Hagar's (Earthly Jerusalem)?

  At Gal 4:24 “24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which bears children for slavery and which is Ha′gar.”
  If we look to see the history of this covenant at Mount Si’nai it takes us back to Exodus 19:1-5 and the Ten Commandments at Exodus 20. This took place three months after the Israelites left Egypt (Exodus 19:1) and at that time there were 600,000 men not including the women and children (Exodus 12:31-38). These were men of 20 years of age and older (Exodus 38:26). So rightfully there were close to 1.2 million people (women and children included) in all if not more. This is the covenant represented in Gal 4:25 as I understand it.
  After establishing a number (could be more) in the covenant of Hagar, we know that from the scripture in Isaiah 54:1 that the other covenant mentioned in Gal 4 (Sarah) is to outnumber the first. This puts a problem with the 144,000 being the Heavenly Jerusalem/Jerusalem from above/New Jerusalem as there were more than 600,000 in the covenant with Hagar!
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  Crazyguy

  Nice point, it also goes quite well with the scriptures that state his people will be like the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven, no man could number. Obviously 144,000 is much smaller.
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  Aroq

  Agreed.

  I found it just crazy that this is given no thought by the JW's I presented it to.