Why I'm Still Angry & Benefit from Simon's ...

by patio34 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • patio34
    patio34

    Some on this board have stated that many here are “bitter” and need to move on from criticizing the WTBS, even implying that there was something wrong with the mental state of ones who continue in their “attacks” of JWs.

    This following seemed to me to hit the nail on the head as to why so many of us stay involved long after we’ve left the Borg. Also, even the Watchtower has stated something like, why don’t people just leave, why do they have to publicly attack JWs? The 1st and most obvious answer is that you can’t “just leave” without being defamed and possibly lose your family.

    The 2nd response is that the WTBS offends an innate human need. This is from The End of History and the Last Man by Francis Fukuyama. My comments and emphasis are in blue.

    (pgs. 164-165) Thymos emerges in the Republic (by Socrates) as being somehow related to the value one sets on oneself, what we today might call “self-esteem.” Leontius believed himself to be the type of individual who could comport himself with a certain dignity and self-restraint, and when he failed to live up to his own sense of self-esteem, he grew angry with himself.

    Socrates suggests a relationship between anger and “self-esteem” by explaining that the nobler a man is—that is, the more highly he evaluates his own worth—the more angry he will become when he has been dealt with unjustly:

    his spirit “boils and becomes harsh,” forming an alliance for battle with what seems just” even if he “suffers in hunger, cold, and everything of the sort…” Thymos is something like an innate human sense of justice; people believe that have a certain worth, and when other people act as though they are worth less—when they do not recognize their worth at its correct value—then they become angry.

    The intimate relationship between self-evaluation and anger can be seen in the English word synonymous with anger, “indignation.” “Dignity” refers to a person’s sense of self-worth; “in-dignation” arises when something happens to offend that sense of worth. Conversely, when other people see that we are not living up to our own sense of self-esteem, we feel shame, and when we are evaluated justly (i.e., in proportion to our true worth), we feel pride.

    We've been offended, deceived, shunned, and defamed. It's unjust and noble persons react when they've been treated like this. It's no wonder at all that many of us appreciate this venue of fighting injustice and continue to struggle against such oppression. The WTBS is a totalitarian organization with no legitimate right to "rule" so many people.

  • HildaBingen
    HildaBingen

    Dear patio,

    Shun the philosophy of the world. It will bite you everytime, dear. Read Colossians 2:8. Socrates was wrong.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    The WTBS is a totalitarian organization with no legitimate right to "rule" so many people.

    Absolutely right. If it shows all the characteristics of a totalitarian organisation, it must be totalitarian.

    Nice post, patio

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

    - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress

  • patio34
    patio34

    Another thought: this board gives us a place to unite and compare ideas. We also can get more involved in action, instead of being alone and "licking our wounds." Noam Chomsky uses the word "atomized" in describing how individuals don't congregate and right social wrongs anymore. But this board accomplishes that for us.

    Thanks again to Simon and Angharad for making all of this possible!

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Pat,

    Great Quotes! Thanks so much for putting this into human terms. Even the bible says that our tongue is wicked and the heart deceives.

    Someone once referred to the participants on this forum as the "walking wounded." True enough - we get through the day, but the WT has been able to entwine every fiber of our being......and breaking free is an entangled strong web.

    When your family shuns you, stays angry at you, even curses you for no longer believing like they do.....it's humiliating, frustrating, hurtful, and tends to make one quite angry - because there's really nothing you can do. Just love them quietly or leave them as they've already left you. It hurts.

    What's even more frustrating is you can see in their eyes....they know something's wrong in WatchtowerLand......they just can't admit it. It hurts too much.

    Thanks for the post, Pat......and staying above the trolls. A fine example to the rest of us who want to say "bite me."

    waiting

  • gumby
    gumby

    "the more highly he evaluates his own worth—the more angry he will become when he has been dealt with unjustly":

    Well.......I must have developed some self esteem after leaving the dubs 7 years ago, because I have REALLY changed in my personality when someone crosses my path unjustly. I have become so short fused in this regard.... and I like it!

    Nobody NEEDS to take any s**t from anyone when they don't deserve it.

    I have found if you "turn your cheek" too much, you get the crap kicked out of you!

  • SYN
    SYN

    Hilda "BlingBling": Ah, yes, the philosophy of the world...damn that "wordly" philosophy, it's a-leading all the friends astray...no, we have to believe the philosophy in a book written, oddly enough, by PEOPLE. Lovely.

    "If men were like their personal ads, they wouldn't need personal ads."

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi HildaBingen, Thanks for reading my post. I don't have much to say in response to your post, however. I guess i feel there's just no reasoning with logic like yours. Except to say that it isn't only Socrates who made the observation, it was also several other notable folks who were defining the psychological phenomenon of the "desire for recognition." Plato also spoke of thymos. Machiavelli of man's desire for glory, Hobbes of vainglory, Rousseau of his amour-propre, Alexander Hamilton of the love of fame, and James Madison of ambition, Hegel of recognition, and Nietzsche of man as the "beast with red cheeks. It's part of what made humans different from the animals.

    Part of the purpose of the anger arising from thymos is potentially an ally of reason in helping to suprpress wrong or foolish desires, but nonetheless is distinct from reason.

    Thanks Ozzie for your reply. You mentioned the WTBS being like a totalitarian group. That's just one of the precise reasons my oldest son has withdrawn from the WT. After the 9/11 attacks in the US, he couldn't help but draw comparisons of the Taliban with the WT.

    Hiya Waiting! I believe as you said that they know something's wrong in WatchtowerLand...they just can't admit it. If the whole shunning thing were dropped, it seems to me that a lot of JWs would leave. Just think of us as the forerunners of freedom and the noble who wouldn't put up with any more injustice.

    Hi Syn, You're so right that the blinders are on when people continue to accept unquestioningly the bible as the "word of God." And not see the flaws and proofs that it is indeed, the philosophy of people. In fact, very warmongering, tribal, intolerant, often-savage, and genocidal people. These very same people (Moses, Joshua, etc.) would likely be put on trial for war crimes today.

    Hi Gumby! Great attitude! Your sense of thymos must really be developed and that's a good thing! I agree with you about the "turn the other cheek" philosophy. That just serves to keep people in submission.

    Have a great Saturday!

  • HildaBingen
    HildaBingen

    Dear patio:

    Let me explain why I think Socrates is wrong.

    :Socrates suggests a relationship between anger and “self-esteem” by explaining that the nobler a man is—that is, the more highly he evaluates his own worth—the more angry he will become when he has been dealt with unjustly: his spirit “boils and becomes harsh,” forming an alliance for battle with what seems just” even if he “suffers in hunger, cold, and everything of the sort…” Thymos is something like an innate human sense of justice; people believe that have a certain worth, and when other people act as though they are worth less—when they do not recognize their worth at its correct value—then they become angry.:

    What is entailed in being noble? Is being noble recognizing one's own self-worth? I doubt it. I am no philosopher--only an ignorant mystic. Yet I would pit my Jesus against Socrates' wisdom anyday.

    Jesus was the most noble man who ever lived, I believe. This noble man was not angered when people insulted his self-worth. No but he prayed for those who insulted his self-worth and tried to help them in any way that he could. He left us a model to follow, friend.

    Read what Peter writes:

    For to this have ye been called; for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth; who, when reviled, reviled not again; when suffering, threatened not; but gave himself over into the hands of him who judges righteously

    (1 Peter 2:21-23)

    To me that is true nobility, dear.

  • individuals wife
    individuals wife
    Some on this board have stated that many here are “bitter” and need to move on from criticizing the WTBS, even implying that there was something wrong with the mental state of ones who continue in their “attacks” of JWs.

    How can you move on from criticizing them when they still attempt to have an influence on your life?

    Recently my husband was in conversation with a witness, my husband is neither da'd or df'd yet no longer considers himself part of their organisation. This witness was encouraging him to come along to a meeting. Husband pointed out that I would probably divorce him (I am da'd) yet this fact did not deter them. They said that hubby should wait till I go to work on a Sunday morning or do an evening shift and then sneak out without me knowing. Apparently "SHE WOULD NEVER KNOW!"

    That is the sort of thing that makes me angry, encouraging deceit and lying, especially as the children would have to be involved in this scheme. It makes you wonder how some of these people sleep at night. So much for the literature I remember reading that said JWs and their religion do not split up families.

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