Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"

by DATA-DOG 387 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    "We do not compare the Watchtower to the Bible, Gods Word comes before anything else in terms of importance."

    Actually your organization does subtly compare its literature to the bible. Notice how it does it:

    *** w02 10/1 p. 12 par. 2 Jehovah Blesses and Protects Those Who Are Obedient ***
    However, if we stay close to God and respond swiftly to the direction we receive through his Word and organization, we can be assured of his protective care.

    *** w94 7/1 p. 9 par. 2 At Which Table Are You Feeding? ***
    "To do this, we must feed spiritually on what Jehovah provides through his Word and organization."

    *** w92 12/15 p. 15 par. 6 Walking With a Unified Heart ***
    Our Grand Instructor, Jehovah, through his Word and organization, illuminates the road, saying: “‘This is the way. Walk in it, you people,’ in case you people should go to the right or in case you should go to the left.”—Isaiah 30:21.

    *** w91 7/15 p. 30 Why Be Clothed With Humility? ***
    Never be like Uzziah and let pride prevent you from accepting discipline from God through His Word and organization.

    *** w88 7/1 p. 25 par. 9 “Jehovah Is My Shepherd” ***
    Jehovah ‘leads us in the tracks of righteousness’ by guiding and instructing us through his Word and organization.

    *** w85 9/1 p. 7 You Can Walk With God ***
    We, too, must take care to submit to God’s direction as given through his Word and organization.

    *** w79 4/1 p. 31 Rearing My Sons Without a Husband ***
    Only with the strength and guidance provided by Jehovah through his Word and organization could I successfully have reared my sons without a husband

    *** w75 6/15 p. 378 par. 14 Looking to the Future with Confidence ***
    However, in order to have a confident outlook for the future we must also begin now to adjust our lives and thoughts to the standards that Jehovah God is revealing to us through his Word and organization.

    The exact phrase 'through his word and organization' occurs some 27 times in the 2011 Watchtower library. No doubt there are also occurences of other similarly worded phrases and ideas throughout. Now ask yourself this, how does the organization communicate with JWs? Principally it's through the literature, the Watchtower being one of the principal means if not the principal means. So what effect do you think repeatedly reading statemsnts like the above would have on the minds of JWs after being in the truth for years? Repeatedly hearing God's Word mentioned as a peer of the organization as in "God's direction through his Word and organization" eventually results in one coming to equate the instructions in the publications of the WTBTS with the teachings in the bible. Yes, a JW would not come outright and say that the literature is inspired as the bible is inspired. But he will behave as if that were so because repeatedly hearing statements like quoted above would implant that idea into his subconcious. He will believe it in his subconscious and act it out while denying it with his conscious mind.

    And I would even venture to say this: JWs put more trust in what the organization tells them the bible means, than what the bible itself plainly says. This is a fact proven by JW history. At one time, before the 1960s, JWs were reading Romans 13 and believing the organization's erroneous teaching that the 'superior authorities' refer to Jehovah and Jesus while ignoring that the scripture was obviously referring to secular govts! What's responsible for this phenomenon? The organization teaches you that you can't understand the bible without them; that the bible is a sealed book to all except them; that by reading the bible alone you will revert to the apostate teachings of christendom. This propaganda cause JWs to put more stock in what the organization teaches than what they can plainly read in their own bible! You believe in the commands of men as doctrines. When there is a difference between what the bible says and what your organization teaches, you tremble at the words of men instead of trembling at the plain words of God in scripture.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Heavensgate:"The JWN community is not really looking for truthful answer they just want to replace wisdom with hate."
    That's not fair really.. Most of the posters have been respectful.

    Heavensgate:"The separation of movements is not acknowledged here unfortunately."
    To be fair, some of the quotes shown here are quite recent. What about that one from 1969, saying children will not grow old as a definite statement? And why can't I look it up on the cd-rom? The awakes only go back to 1970, but the watchtowers to 1950 which I always thought was odd.. And the quote about Jesus being worshipped in the same way as Jehovah, how could the Faithful Slave have printed that at any time?

    'Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion,then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy."Watchtower1945 Oct 15 p.313

  • wizzstick
    wizzstick

    Hi DoT,

    I was a JW for 25 years. Aux Pioneered, MS, and went to Bethel. And now I've left. Why? I summed it up in one line to a close JW friend who was argung on the basis of "well where else do we go?". That line was this:

    "It doesn't matter how 'right' they are, what matters is where they are wrong."

    Look at it like this. You go door to door. You meet someone from Christendom. It could be argued they're in a better position than someone who is a Muslim, or Hindu, or a Buddhist. They use the Bible. They worship God. They believe in salvation through Christs death. And so on. Great! But then they have false teachings. Trinity. Hellfire. Immortal soul. So going back to you on the doorstep, you gently point out where they are wrong. After a while they get defensive.

    "It doesn't matter that some points might be wrong. What matters is my relationship with Jesus Christ!"

    And you reply...

    "Yes it does matter. The Bible says we must worship in spirit and...truth. It also says that a little leaven ferments the whole lump. So can we have false teachings and still worship in an acceptable way to God?"

    Do you get the point? What matters is where they (JW's) have been wrong before...

    Multiple unfulfilled dates: 1874, 1878, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975.

    Multiple false statements, 'young people not fulfilling a career', 'the generation of 1914 will not pass away', 'preaching work to be fulfilled in the 20th century and so on.

    And where they're still wrong to this day:

    607BCE, the wrong location for the Great Crowd, Jesus not being our mediator and so on.

    It is shattering to realise that this isn't the Truth. It really is. And most here haven't found anything to replace it with. But I also think most here would say it's better to live in reality than in a fantasy.

    Take your time.

  • problemaddict
    problemaddict

    DOT,

    I know you have a lot floating out there at you and you are doing the best you can. If nothing else, take away from your time here, that the people you call apostates, are simply just people who no longer agree with the religion of their youth. Some still go because of fear of shunning from family, some maintain ties because they fear their marriage faling apart or panic on the part of aspouse, and some have even lost family and friends simply because they no longer agreed with the GB on matters that are subject to change and revision anyways. We have all kinds of personalities here.

    The organ ban was real. Calling it cannibalism, kept MANY people from knowing their options. Vaccines not being used was real. Its well documented. I used to specifically engage in online apologetics for my faith as you now are. I think I have a pretty good handle onthe good arguements and the bad ones. To say it was never directly stated is semantics. I try to be balanced. I don't think JW's are wrong about everything. Not everything I see is a grand conspiracy. But to be fair, "opposers" have some very valid points that someone with a closed mind will not acknowledge. The openess and ability to empathize should work both ways. Reasonableness dictates that not everything "opposers" say is wrong actually is, but then it also dictates that not every defence of JW doctrine is in fact valid.

    If you are up for it, I would love a discussion on the blood doctrine with you. To me, this is the lynchpin. If the society is wrong about blood (as I believe they are), than there is bloodguilt to go around. It is a very serious thing to enforce through disfellowshipping. I do not believe that the doctrine as it is currently taught is supported biblically, and I believe the evolution of the doctrine is also flawed and contradicts itself.

    If you are open to a respectful back and forth, wether public or private. Please let me know if you are interested. I think it could be stimulating.

    Either way, I wish you well, and good luck in your continued search of truth.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    DOT seems pretty nice. It's hard to keep track of everything on a thead. It's best to pick a subject and stick with it, but even that is hard. I remember being all over the place when learning TTATT. I would grasp some things immediately, others would take some time. Just FYI, we don't hate JWs as individuals, we hate hypocrisy.

    Heavensgate,

    Who are you accusing of being hateful?

    DD

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    The perception is always to backlash the Truth no matter how painful it might be to hear.

    Even when the JWN community member is clearly wrong like Outlaw his peoplewill turn around in a split second and condemn the other as being deceptive......Heavens Gate11

    My People?!..LOL!!..Your Delusional..

    .

    Regardless of what the WBT$ wants to call their followers..

    The WBT$ has always been in charge..That has never changed..

    Any Change in WBT$ Doctrine is done by the WBT$..The Bible Students followed WBT$ Orders..Now JW`s follow WBT$ Orders..

    The WBT$ is responsible for their own Screw ups..Not the WBT$ Bible Students,not the WBT$ JW Cult..

    So don`t try shifting the blame onto a 4th party "exJW`s"..

    It`s Decietful and Misleading..

    Heavensgate:"The JWN community is not really looking for truthful answer they just want to replace wisdom with hate."....Defender of Truth

    .......................................

    ......We`re Correcting Decietful and Misleading Information Regarding the WBT$..

    ...................................................................................................................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • heavensgate11
    heavensgate11

    OUTLAW

    How, by relying on your own deceit. You can’t even acknowledge how wrong you were in a different topic of conversation we had. Wisdom of correction only allows for those that have a clear understanding. Thus far ignorance has proven superior.

    DOT

    Please don’t mistake my empathy with agreeing with you. Your confusion over exceeds any true logic. When Jesus said follow me. He was not exerting authority over himself. He is the vessel that used for salvation. This vessel justifies him to reign over all of us, not as God but as King. Your understanding about dual GOD has never been mentioned in any sensible way. Good Luck with your endeavor.

    For the JWN Community. When you’re ready to remove your blinds, you will understand How GOD corrected his people in the past, and has never left the ideal even today. That’s been the purpose of the Old Testament to understand all a long.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    How, by relying on your own deceit. You can’t even acknowledge how wrong you were in a different topic of conversation we had.

    Wisdom of correction only allows for those that have a clear understanding. Thus far ignorance has proven superior.....heavans Gate11

    My post on that thread,mirrors the one I posted on this thread..

    The topic is exactly the same..You choose not to address the same subject,either time..

    Here`s the link from the thread you refering to..It`s on page 2..

    Click the link below:

    An important question for active JW's 2

    .

    That link will Show Readers your both Decietful and Misleading..

    Ignorance is never Superior..

    .

    ....Thats Why Pro WBT$ JW`s Never..

    ............Win Debates on JWN..

    .........

    ......................................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • heavensgate11
    heavensgate11

    1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

    1:20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

    14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.....Heavens Gate11

    .......................................................................................I`m Calling To Find Out How The..

    .........................................................................WBT$ GB Rock Star Popes,Like Life In the Ditch?!..

    ...............................................................It`s Crowed Because All the JW`s Are There Too?!..OK Thanks!..

    .....................

    ................................................................................................................................................ photo mutley-ani1.gif ...OUTLAW

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