Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"

by DATA-DOG 387 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  defender of truth

  "So you are saying that GOD allows the GB to interpret the Bible, even though it may be wrong.Correct??"
  In terms of interpreting prophecy, yes. The adjustments to the Revelation book show that a different understanding may be correct, but Jehovah will allow minor errors until he sees fit to correct them.
  
  " Are you saying the incorrect interpretationof the GB was 'truth?' "
  ..
  It was our current understanding of the truth. Nobody has a complete understanding of truth, you cannot expect that of imperfect men.
  
  " Do you believe that it is protection to DF people who bring errors to the attention of the GB or Elders? "
  ..Who has the right to declare a belief to be wrong, except those appointed by God to do so? The Bibles words can be understood in many ways, as seen in Christendom. If you are declaring yourself to be right above those that God has allowed to be leading the organisation that bears his name, you are placing your eternal life in jeopardy. Read the account of Korah..
• 

  defender of truth

  "What evidence of their individual appointment do you have?"
  Only one organisation carries the name Jehovah and preaches about him worldwide, with increases every year and millions of publications containing his name. He would see to it that they were removed if they were wrongly appointed. That they are in the lead, is evidence in itself.
  
  "Even the FDS doesn't go beyond what the Bible says on a matter.
  For example:
  beards?
  predicting the date for Armageddon (at least) 4 or 5 times?
  NO blood vs blood fractions vs hemo-dilution vs auto-logus vs etc etc (yeah, that's all written in the Bible) "
  
  The Bible says to abstain from blood. How you decide to twist/interpret those words is up to you, but they are there in black and white. The FDS didn't make them up. As for beards, nobody is df'd for that, it is a personal decision. And when they predicted possible dates for Armageddon, they were just theories, not held as infallible in the way the Bibles words are. I meant that they don't go beyond the Bible in terms of doctrine.
• 

  defender of truth

  galaxie:"The problem they have of course is truth cannot change so by accepting, as they must if they are honest and have sound reasoning, that what they believed as truth has changed (this is a time for honesty) then the only thing they could possibly try to defend is their man made organizations interpretations not truth."
  Only the Bible has absolute truth. It is our understanding that can change, prophecy can only be understood as it is being fulfilled for example. Our core beliefs remain unchanged, though, which is further evidence that we have been blessed with gradual understanding.
  
  Problemaddict:" What if they are wrong about something serious...like organs, vaccines, or blood fractions?"
  No idea what you mean here. We are allowed those things.
• 

  Jon Preston

  It would behoove u DOT to research what the GB used to say about organs....many witnesses refused organs because they were told not to Accept them....the GB even spoke of it as cannibalism. How many witnesses do younthink died as a result? And the blood doctrine is based on their own interpretation, not even sticking to the criteria given in the old testament noachian or mosaic law on blood. Hence it is beyond the things written. Take off the WT goggles lad.
• 

  galaxie

  D O T. You are an apologist for eight men.

  It was not you who came up with their interpretations.

  Why follow their thinking?

  They and their counterparts have got it all wrong so many times.

  Why not look them square in the sixteen eyes and say I''ll think for myself.!!
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Alright, let's go over that criteria again.

  So we are in agreement on #1 and #3. Let's look at the rest.

  #2 Truth is the correct understanding of God's word. We can't have a full understanding of God's word on every subject.

  I agree. Just think of Revelation. Having all the answers is not the issue. The issue is claiming to have "the truth" about everything and calling your faith "the truth", and setting up a barrier between Us and Them. We have "the truth" and they do not. Only we have God's approval because we have "the truth." That person is weak in "the truth."

  To be honest, once you realize that you do not need all the answers, you will feel a freedom that you have never experienced before. So if we JWs don't have all the answers, why would we persecute our Brothers and Sisters, especially new partakers, if they point out an error in our current understanding?

  #4 No truth can contradict another truth.

  If a former view was contradicted by a better understanding, then that former view was not a "truth", would you agree with that? Here is an example. People used to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth. That was not true at all. The Earth revolving around the Sun has ALWAYS been true. It was always a "truth" even when no one knew it. There is big difference in an actual "truth" and a current idea. Your current idea might be a "truth", but you can't say that it is until it meets the 7th criteria. So, were the religious leaders justified in persecuting those who knew "truth" about the Solar system? Why do you think they acted the way they did?

  Going forwards or backwards is not really wrong in itself. The real issue is demanding that others accept our ideas, or else. It's also wrong to say that you have never flip-flopped when you have done so repeatedly. Tell me if the following is true or false.

  " At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case." 12/1/1981 Watchtower

  Have you personally read about the "Superior Authorities?" How is that not a case of going back to a previous point of view?

  DD
• 

  galaxie

  DOT you say your organisation has been" blessed with further understanding".

  Would you say therefore that the previous understanding was/was not blessed?

  Why would god bless a wrong or incomplete understanding?

  Does he/she/it not want us to know or is it a god game?

  You seem to be playing it but not really winning.

  Oh I forgot the rules can change and you have to play along!!
• 

  defender of truth

  'The issue is claiming to have "the truth" about everything'
  
  ..The Slave do not claim to know the complete truth on all matters.
  
  "Would you say therefore that the previous understanding was/was not blessed? "
  
  ..Of course it wasn't blessed. No imperfect men can do what God wants them to do at all times, mistakes are made
• 

  Brainfloss

  taken from jwfacts.com

  verified by me and countless others check for yourself

  Watchtower Reasons for Disfellowshipping

  Bible discussion of shunning in 1 Corinthian's 15 and 2 John is limited to just the following areas; Fornication, Greed, idolatry, Revilers, Practicing Drunkenness, Extortion and One who does not remain in the teaching of the Christ.

  This list should be the full extent of reasons for which to be disfellowshipped. In fact, Diotrephes was reprimanded for attempting to throw people out of the congregation unnecessarily.

  3 John 9,10 "I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation."

  Following is the vast list of offences the Watchtower has created for which a Jehovah's Witness can be disfellowshipped or disassociated.

  The abbreviations refer to the following publications:
  
  - Kingdom Ministry (km)
  - Watchtower (w)
  - Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom (1993) (jv)
  - Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock (ks91-E)
  - Organised to Accomplish Our Ministry (om)
  - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 or 2 (it-1 or 2)

  1. Adultery (sexual intercourse with a person other than your marriage mate), includes;

  • Abandoning wife and eloping with another woman - w79 11/15 31-2, w76 p.728
  • Planned adultery to break Scriptural marriage ties - w83 3/15 p.29
  • Remarriage without Scriptural permission - w56 10/1 p.597
  • Polygamy - jv 176
  • Dating a person not legally divorced - ks91-E p.135
• Apostasy - w83 4/1 pp.22-4, km 8/80 pp.1, 4. includes;
• Rebellion against Jehovah's organization - w63 7/1
• Promoting sects - it-2 886
• Associating with disfellowshipped people including;
• Friends - ks91-E p.103, w81 9/15 pp.25-6, w55 10/1 p.607
• Family - ks91-E p.103
• Blood and blood transfusions - w61 1/15 ks91-E p.95, jv p.183-4
• Drug use - ks91-E p.96
• Drunkenness - ks91-E p.95, it-1 656
• Dishonest business practices - w63 7/1, w86 11/15 14
• Employment violating Christian principles - km 9/76 p.6, km 2/74
• Working for any religious organization - ks91-E p.95
• Working in a gambling institution - ks91-E p.136
• Selling tobacco - ks91-E p.96
• Contract work at a military establishment
• False worship. Includes;
• Attending another church ks91-E p.94
• Following mourning customs that involve false worship - w85 4/15 p.25
• Fornication it-1 863
• Bestiality - w83 6/1 p.25
• Incestuous marriage - w78 3/15 p.26
• Artificial insemination and surrogate motherhood.
• "True Christians, therefore, avoid surrogate motherhood as well as any procedures that involve the use of donated sperm, eggs, or embryos" g04 9/22;
• "Artificial insemination of a married woman by a donor other than her husband makes her guilty of adultery" g74 8/8 p.28
• sexual abuse of children - g93 10/8 p.10Reviling - ks91-E p.94, w96 7/15 pp.17-18; it-1 p.991; it-2 p.802
• Fraud - ks91-E p.94, om pp.142-3
• Gambling or related employment - w80 9/1, ks91-E p.136
• Gluttony - w86 5/1
• Greediness, this in used to include;
• gambling ks91-E p.95
• extortion ks91-E p.95, w89 1/15 22, it-1 p.789
• greed in relation to bride-price: w98 9/15 p.25
• Homosexuality - w83 6/1 pp.24-6
• Idolatry - w52 3/1 p.138
• Loose conduct - ks91-E pp.93, 96, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 p.574, it-2 p.264, ks91-E p.93, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 pp.574-6, w97 9/1 p.14, it-2 p.246.

This includes;

• Sexual perversion
• Disregard for Jehovah's moral standards
• Disrespect, disregard or even contempt for standards, laws and authority,

Rather than restricted to the usual definition of sexual perversion, the Watchtower defines "loose conduct" as including "disrespect to elders". This enables this term to be used to disfellowship for a wide range of offences not elsewhere covered, and as such is used to cover all manner of sins, such as refusal to cease fellowship with disfellowshipped people, or even being contemptuous in a judicial meeting where no other sin can be proven.

1. Lying - ks91-E p.94, g00 2/8 p.21
2. Non neutral activities (involvement in politics and the military) - ks91-E p.96
3. Military service and non military service including working casual work (certain civilian work has recently been made a conscience matter w96 5/1 p.20) - ks91-E p.96
4. Obscene speech - ks91-E p.95
5. Parents condoning immorality - w56 p.566
6. Political involvement, including voting or holding a political card in Malawi - ks91-E p.96 (w99 11/1 p.28 made voting a conscience matter)
7. Porneia. Includes oral and anal sex between married couples, mutual masturbation between persons not married to each other, homosexuality, lesbianism, fornication, adultery, incest, and bestiality. - ks91-E p.93
8. Slander - ks91-E p.94, w63 7/1, w89 10/15 p.14, om p.142
9. Smoking or selling tobacco - km 2/74, ks91-E p.96
10. Spiritism (includes yoga w02 8/1 p.22) - w55 10/1 p.607
11. Stealing, thievery - om pp.142-5, ks91-E p.94
12. Subversive activity - w95 10/1 p.31
13. Uncleanness
• Sexually perverse practices within marriage, such as oral and anal sex - w83 3/15 p.31
• Heavy petting and breast fondling - ks91-E p.92
• Touching of sexual parts - ks91-E p.91
• Practice of viewing abhorrent Pornography - w2012 3/15 p.31
• Violation of secular law if flagrant attitude - w86 10/1 p.31
• Violence, extreme physical abuse, fits of anger - ks91-E p.96, w75 p.287, g01 11/8 p.12
• Includes Boxing w81 7/1 pp.30-1, ks91-E p.142
• Wilfull non support of family, endangerment of mates spirituality - w88 11/1 pp.22-3, km 9/73 p.8, ks91-E p.95
• Worldly celebrations such as Christmas - ks91-E p.95 (It appears celebrating birthdays is not a reason to be disfellowshipped) think about that a bit DOT