Chat with Elder, how would you reply? (page 2)

sir82

So Jehovah allows his spirit directed people to get things wrong

So Jesus was spirit directed, and he made a mistake?

Woops!

StephaneLaliberte

The selection of Judas was made so as to accomplish a prophecy.

Is there a prophecy on how the Faithful Servant would provide, at various times, erroneous teachings? Does that prophecy elaborate on how this “wise” slave would force these erroneous teachings on his fellow slaves? Does it also indicate that this slave would take a strong stand by taking the initiative by throwing out of the house of his lord any of his fellow slaves who dares to challenge these erroneous teachings?

In a Jerry Maguire voice: “Show me the prophecy!”

EndofMysteries

What commands did Moses ever give that were wrong? He was imperfect and messed up but he never told the nation God said something then later said, opps he didn't tell me that, I am just imperfect.

snakeface

OK. Then since "Jehovah allows his people to make mistakes..." then why is there a disfellowshipping arrangement?

sir82

His argument might hold water if (a) the WTS weren't constantly making mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake after...., and (b) the penalty for disagreeing with them, even if they are mistaken, is enforced shunning by virtually everyone who is close to you.

EndofMysteries

According to the GB, the story of Moses would go something like this......

And Moses spake to the son of Israel and said, "We must henceforth go into the wilderness and leave Egypt and the Lord will provide for us." Then all of Israel rejoiced and the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and finally Israel quested into the wilderness. The people were dying of starvation. And Moses spake, "Sons of Israel, in your eagerness to be redeemed, you falsely assummed that if you went into the wilderness, the Lord would provide for you, and I just an imperfect man went along with it." Then the sons of Korah stood up, "Obviously Moses was not talking to the Lord, and he is also not humble enough to admit it was his mistake but he is blaming all of you, let us return to Egypt before we all die of this madness." And the Lord suddenly appeared and smited the sons of Korah and everyone else because they dare question the authority of the faithful and discreet slave Moses who was spirited directed even though he was imperfect and giving false information.

happy@last

His point was that Jehovah would have known what was in Judas heart but allowed Jesus to select him, thus proving that Jehovah allows his people to make mistakes but will sort it out in line with his purpose!

So he believes in predestination?!

problemaddict

There are a few things you can say. Some are a little crazier than others.

1) It was foretold Jesus would be betrayed. So did Jesus really make a "mistake"?

2) Is he comparing Jesus praying over the disciples to the GB changing doctrine in this analogy?

3) There are many accounts of people in the bible, even the NT that had incorrect reasonings. In fact, after jesus left the "saying went out among the brothers that John would not die". This was a false understanding. But it didn't mean they were not approved. That was one I always used to use. In fact, when the holy spirit was poured out, they were given the gifts of the spirit. This was just healing and speaking in tongues. It was also "wisdom" and "knowledge". Paul said these things would cease (which includes the wisdom and knowledge part). So are JW's reversing what Paul sauid would cease, or do the GB not have any SPECIAL understanding?

4) Essentially you don't have a problem with a possibly wrong doctrine. There are lots of doctrines you don't agree with. You have aproblem with a possible wrong doctrine, being ENFORCED, or you being percieved as a dissenter if you do not agree with something. Vaccines, blood fractions, even organs are good examples of this control going to far.

5) Is not every other religion also imperfect? Some of them have gone away from the doctrine of firey hell. Could the same idea of light getting brighter also apply to them?

problemaddict

Also.....I would ask him what "spirit directed" means and if he has a biblical example. Closely watch the example, and what must be true according to his analogy. There are no biblical precidents for today, because there are no seen miracles or proof of appointment. In addition, the GB selects its own members, in an unknown unseen way. How do we know any of these guys were subsaquently appointed, without divine intervention (which they admit), and since 1919 when the first "board of directors" was made the faithful and discreet slave. It sounds like apostolic succesion of a sort.

prologos

to follow EGAN, Jesus knew one had to bechosen to betray him, Jesus picked well John 6:71. what the wt-appointed elder is saying:

We all, rulers, are picked by holy spirit, what ever we do is right, will serve god's pupose one way or another.

I would not rply like that exactly, but a reply could be made that would satidgy the issue for the moment, but when the 'elder' thought about it later, the implications would sink in.:

bible writers waffeled all along, starting with the talking snake.

Chat with Elder, how would you reply?

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