Chat with Elder, how would you reply? (page 3)

NewYork44M

I hate discussions like this. They miss the basic premise of actually being appointed by holy spirit. If the GB are human, make mistakes and god make mistakes and are none of their utterances are inspired, what good are they?

Comatose

More of the same as others from me... But, Assuming the bible is 100% fact and inspired, then this logically follows.

Jesus HAD to be betrayed by Judas in the exact way he did it according to prophesy. But, god doesn't choose to see the future... I mean think about it. If god chose to see the future he could have just said, NO Satan, your way will fail and billions will die on earth and in heaven. I forbid it. The angels and people all know god can't be wrong. So they would have had to agree with it and it would have been Okay like that! Instead, god said free will won't let me look into the future. Unless I'm prophesying about stuff like I do all the time while you all suffer and die...

No... Its all BS.

DATA-DOG

You just can't win that argument. Take it to the next logical step if you want, but be careful. The Eldubs are on high alert for the apostate boogey-man. I guess my advice is to continue what you are doing. Reason things out. Take your time. Just don't expect to teach anything to anyone who cannot reason.

What KATE said is true. It's a paradox. The Elder will just use circular reasoning to avoid facing his own fears, doubts and dissonance. Your research will more than likely be for your own mental health.

AndDontCallMeShirley

The dizzying logic of "new light":

.

1. A current, in-use doctrine is absolute truth. Disagree with it and you are disagreeing with god and you'll be disfellowshipped.

2. When that doctrine is changed, then the GB are just imperfect men and god didn't really tell them the facts. Don't worry about it.

3. Revised doctrine is now absolute truth. Continue to believe the original doctrine ("old light") and you'll be disfellowshipped (please see point #1)

4. When revised doctrine is changed again (and it will be), please see point #2

5. Point #1 is now in force

6. repeat as often as necessary ad nauseum.

GreenhornChristian

Bro Elder, the Bible was written by imperfect men so likely Matthew misunderstood the Holy Spirit when he wrote that passage.

(Pretty cool: I wrote holy spirit in lower case and spell check automatically changed it to upper. Brilliant)

Dismissing servant

Bravo, Comatose! Many fundies inclusive many JW's don't get that point. If you believe the bible story Judas had an important role in getting Jesus to die as a ransom. His betrayal had to happen. Don't blame Judas. Christians/JW's should be thankful to him. No Judas no ransom.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Judas should be a hero to Christians.

.

Also, if god knew well ahead of time that Judas would take a wrong path, why didn't god follow his own advice?:

(Galatians 6:1) 6

"Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. . ."

.

Apparently, god sees no need to apply the counsel he expects humans to follow.

BluesBrother

His reply was that Jesus after heartfelt prayer selected Judas. So Jehovah allows his spirit directed people to get things wrong

So this elder sets himself up to criticize Jesus for "getting things wrong" Hmm. I don't think so. As others have said, there was a reason behind it . Perhaps he should check the Insight Book:

It p 858

Thus, it seems evident that at the time of his being selected as an apostle, Judas’ heart presented no definite evidence of a treasonous attitude. He allowed a ‘poisonous root to spring up’ and defile him, resulting in his deviation and in his accepting, not God’s direction, but the Devil’s leading in a course of thievery and treachery. (Heb 12:14, 15; Joh 13:2; Ac 1:24, 25; Jas 1:14, 15; see JUDAS No. 4.) By the time such deviation reached a certain point, Jesus himself could read Judas’ heart and foretell his betrayal.—Joh 13:10, 11.

No mistake there. The error was on Judas' part not Jesus'

GreenhornChristian

Thus, it seems evident BluesBrother has found a great reference for refutation.

DesirousOfChange

I guess what that elder is saying is that the GB is actually the "Judas class".

Just as Jesus selected Judas, Jesus (and Jehovah) selects the GB. Then just as Judas chose to become bad, the GB chose to teach falsehood.

WOW!

I don't want to be in the room when that shitstorm starts!

I'll just come back and wipe up the blood.

Doc

Chat with Elder, how would you reply?

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