One aspect of evolution that does not make sense.....

by EndofMysteries 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    You asked him isn't a chameleon changing it's color to match the background. Cofty's answer, "No".

    No. Please try to actaully read your own thread carefully.

    SM asked - "Isn't a chameleon changing its color to match its surrounding adapting to its environment?"

    This was in reponse to my reminder that evolution does not involve individuals adapting to their environment as you asserted in the OP. This is Lamarkianism and is a very common misunderstanding among people who have never bothered to read a single book about evolution.

    A cameleon's ability to change colour evolved for reasons of social signalling. It may or may not have been coopted to help with camoflague. I don't pretend to know more than researches that have studied the subject in detail... Apparently you do.

    Please tell us which books on evolution you have read.

  • bohm
    bohm

    EOM in college:

    Teacher: ...and by the real numbers we commonly mean all numbers, the positive and negative, fractions, square roots, pi, e and so on but not imaginary numbers such as sqrt(-1). Later we will show how we can construct real numbers from something called dedekin cuts but before this we will spend the next lectures on set theory...

    EOM: (raise hand)

    Teacher: Yes, EOM?

    EOM: If the real numbers are real, can I lick them?

    Teacher: No, they are called real for historical reasons--

    EOM: Are you an atheist?

    Teacher: Yes but-

    EOM: Okay I have a question for you atheists, if the real numbers are not real, why do you then use them?

    Teacher: My religious conviction has nothing to do with that question and it is based on multiple false premises which will be clear when you read the textbook.

    EOM: I dont like reading. Why wont you answer my question?

    Teacher: (sigh). Okay. The real numbers are simply called "real" for historical reasons. They are constructed from simpler mathematical objects like the natural numbers such that they have certain properties such as containing pi. The real numbers exist in the same sense other mathematical objects do.

    EOM: How can you build something from something that does not exist? Mathematics contradict itself. It does not make any sense.

    Teacher: You have not read the textbook right?

    EOM: No. There is no point in reading a textbook if you atheists are unable to answer simple common-sense questions. Atheists, was the reals constructed in China? What happened to the material that went into building the real numbers, did it just disappear?

    Teacher: Are there any members of the liberatarian student union present? If you are still looking for signatures for allowing guns on campus I would like to have a word with you after class.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Perfect analogy.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Oh yeah, if real numbers evolved from Dedikin cuts, why are there still Dedikin cuts?

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    You guys must have made great Witnesses; you're a real loss to the organization. Nothing draws in a potential student better than refusing to acknowledge that you know what they mean just because they used a wrong word, refusing to answer basic questions because you feel they're beneath you, and saying "I don't believe you have the slightest interest in learning anything".

  • bohm
    bohm

    Apognophos: Thank-you for your thought out reply. I am happy you do not feel there is something like ill-informed and stupid questions.

    Can you tell me how the magnet knows where the fridge is when it does not have eyes?

    It does not make sense.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    EOM is not a potential student, not at this point in time. As I pointed out to you before, if you look at his posting history, he does this all the time, throws up smoke, refuses to do any research on his own and these things have been explained time and time again with references to more information provided.

    If he (or she) refuses to learn after asking and being provided everything they need to move forward, they are lazy or intentionally remaining ignorant and spreading that ignorance to support an agenda.

    Since you didn't bother to do the basic research yourself to see if this was the case (after you had already been told it was), you can go somewhere else with your ill-conceived comparisons to the WT.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Can you tell me how the magnet knows where the fridge is when it does not have eyes?

    It does not make sense.

    Sure, bohm, I'd be glad to address that. The magnet is being pulled by atomic forces inside itself. It does not need to perceive anything or even have a mind at all.

    Wasn't that easy? Or did you prefer to be insulted and told to read a book?

    EOM is not a potential student, not at this point in time. As I pointed out to you before, if you look at his posting history, he does this all the time

    Personally I don't judge people by their past history. I stay in the present, because people are a process, not a product. Perhaps he just wasn't satisfied by the past explanations he got. I was willing to spend some time writing up (what I hoped were) answers to his questions because, even if EOM is not receptive to the answers (and I actually think he is), there are always plenty of lurkers reading these topics, and I am confident that "read a book" does not sound very convincing to a JW that may be reading this thread.

    In fact, I myself started out on this thread telling him to "read a book", but I also tried my best in that same post to answer his question with a little placeholder until he gets to read about this stuff himself. I would love to buy a bunch of books right now on topics like evolution and the history of the Bible, but I cannot do this until I have faded from my current situation as a JW because my bookshelves are "under observation" by other Witnesses. I also don't have the time to do a lot of reading of library books as I spend all of my time working to leave my current situation. So I'm not assuming that everyone is in a position to obtain a book on a subject, or that they want to spend money and time on a whole book instead of getting a straightforward answer on a forum.

    When I was a true believer, I had many prepared objections to evolution and at one time I would have been a frustrating person to argue with on the subject. It took a while before I was willing to consider evolution with an open mind. I am still early in the process of learning all this stuff. Thankfully I haven't had to contend with Knowledge Police saying to me, "You were a Witness, you don't get to learn about evolution because you used to believe it was false." Nor do I have to contend with Grammar Police saying to me, "You used the word 'adapt' incorrectly, so I'm going to play dumb while you get frustrated with me, while also sitting on a high horse because I happened to learn something before you did."

    Sorry, but that's arrogance, plain and simple. I want to win over people to the things I've learned and am enthusiastic about, not bask in a sense of superiority.

  • Pacopoolio
    Pacopoolio

    Apognophos: You have the Internet, and should be able to track down early/layman level introductory articles and books about various aspects of evolution.

    In fact, that's how my "fading" started. I liked debate, and would go online ad debate with atheists with stupid stuff I got from the Creation Book. The Creation Book completely misrepresents evolution, but does so in a sneaky way in which it doesn't seem so with a basic school Biology 1 learning of the concept. Because of this, I was always debating with a strawman or false premise, which I started to realize by people constantly asking me what the heck I was talking about (and me having to "cheat" to win arguments, even when I knew inside that I was using distraction tactics and fallacies). However, I couldn't stand knowing that I was being dishonest in my debating, and used the Internet to read more about the subject.

    EOM is doing that exact same thing. Every once in a while, he gets an idea in his head that he has a "gotcha" where he can finally trip up those pesky atheists with a logical trap, and then posts on here trying to "gotcha" people. However, his "gotchas" never work because he doesn't understand the premise of what he's arguing, and then once he gets dogpiled with that, he transparently tries to distract and shift attention off of himself because he's cornered in a subject he's not that educated on. At some point, you have to stop coddling as you start wasting your own time - he needs to go and read up on these things on his own as opposed to getting the basics explained over and over.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @EOM,

    All of these answers seem to be assuming that by chance an organism happens to over time look like it's surroundings and so those who happen to slowly mutate into looking more like their surroundings are the ones that blend in. That can make sense for those that have just one appearance, I might buy that for a dollar.

    The first thing that pops out above the above statement is you are asserting that "all of these answers" rest on assumption that an "organism" (singular? an individual?) will start to look like its surroundings "by chance." In my previous posts, I was attempting to disarm misleading language like this. If a population, over time, starts to look like its surroundings, it is because if a PROCESS, not by chance. This process is simple, yet the results of the simple process can be quite complex. This process is normally called natural selection, and the results it produces (change in a populations frequency of traits) is called evolution.

    Also, it may have been a typing mistake on your part, which is fine, but you described it as a singular organism, by chance, over time, looking like its surroundings. An organism, will never do this, ever. Only populations. Anyone that says an individual might change over time doesn't understand what evolution is, period.

    Not for a chameleon though that changes his appearence to blend in to the surroundings and based on the type of predator looking at him.

    Maybe this will answer my question, somebody explain to me before a chameleon had the ability to camouflage itself, if it was always just a brown skinned creature, explain the process of evolution and the triggers that it developed the ability to camouflage.

    Cameleon generation 1 - one color, has no more ability to change it's colors and appearance then would a human be able to.

    Explain how by generation 100, or 1000, etc, it can do it.

    Now for something like why humans needed wisdom teeth but now they don't that would be easy to explain, but I can't think of how they would go from no ability to change color to what they do now, so perhaps if you can explain it that way, it will make sense.

    You also later said:

    Okay, chart out an evolutionary process that will allow humans to camouflage exactly like chameleons do, whether it takes 1,000 years, 1 million years, or 1 billion years, without direct scientists intervention, at some point in the future a human can do what chameleons do, and it must be by evolution only.

    When I was first leaving the WTB&TS, I had a discussion about evolution with a family friend. After a few hours of discussion, involving different examples, he said that the only way he could believe evolution is true would be if a fossil (or even a live example) could be found where an organism was literally giving birth to another species. When I responded that it seemed like a pretty tall order, he just smiled. But when I said that if such an example were to be found, it would actually disprove evolution, he just looked at me with a blank stare. We had just spent three hours talking about evolution, and yet it became clear that no matter how many examples I could give, it didn't matter because he still didn't understand the process and what it implies. For him to believe in evolution, he was looking for a form of evidence that would actually show that evolution was false - it would be some other strange phenomena, but not evolution.

    Ultimately, we can theorize how a chameleon came to have its ability, but we can't miss the forest from the trees, so-to-speak. Let's say it has nothing to do with social signaling. It doesn't matter at all. To me this question is absolutely no different than wondering how an eye might form, or wondering how the "irreducibly complex" flagellum might form through evolution.

    Every now and then somebody looks at the complexity of life and just can't wrap their minds around how it could come about through evolution. It seems too complex, too intricate, and seems like it could never be reduced to a series of steps. When this happens, I think this is mainly because evolution, as a simple algorithm or process, is not understood. I can tell when someone has a problem with the basics when evolution is described as happing just "by chance." Or an unreasonable request is made - like demanding 1200+ generation list detailing how a human might be like a chameleon.

    Let me approach it from a non-evolutionary perspective, something less controversial. I work as a software developer, and I have been involved in the development of several large scale applications. When all is said and done, and the application is delivered for the first time, there may be hundreds, if not thousands of different modules. They all depend on each other such that if one were removed, it would cause large scale failure. And yet, I am 100% positive, because I watch it occur, that the application was developed step-by-step. Also, if you were to ask me after the fact to list those massive series of steps, I would probably be able to do it generally (this part came first, then this intermediary part, then this), but I would have no idea of the details. And yet, I watched, along with others, as this came into existence step-by-step. The point is that you must step back and have a sense of proportion. As humans we have a huge epistemic limitation. But, if you asked me the process in which the program was developed, well, now that I can answer. And it would show how the program came about without the detail.

    Another example, perhaps, is the free market. The famous example is the pencil. The rubber came from somewhere, the little metal rim came from somewhere else, and the wood from yet somewhere else. The wood, however, would need to be harvested with chainsaws, which are made from steel. But the steel manufacturing couldn't be done first without mining. But the miners might need steel too. How could that be? The graphite from the pencil is yet another story, each part having its own dependancies on some other part of the market. And yet, here it is. And there was no central intelligence. Nobody can detail the steps that created this interconnected production - but it came about. But, we know a lot about the process. The market is the natural minimizing algorithm that occurs when people come together to exchange freely.

    These are a couple of non-evolutionary examples. The final answer to your question IMHO, is understand the process of evolution. It is not chance. It is not blind. This question boils down to all other "how-could-this-structure-ever-come-about" questions. You first have to come to see that complex structures really do come about, without any guidance, with the help of simple natural algorithms.

    MMM

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